Bobbed Hammer Benefits

[Carmoney]

With properly-prepared ammo, my 625 with its 5.25 pound action will NEVER misfire.

I for one would like to have a lighter double action pull on my 625.

With the standard innards it is around 9.5 LLbs.

I fitted a lighter mainspring and rebound spring. But had some light strikes.

When I powered up the mainspring to fire everyone it seems to be overpowering the lighter rebound spring and the trigger won't reset quick enough.

So how do I sort that out.

al

Al, not sure there's any magic formula here. First off, the most important factor for reliability with lightened actions is to shoot nothing but Federal primers consistently seated to below flush. That means hand-seated if necessary. Tedious but it works to prevent the clicks. Second, you discovered one of the most critical keys to working revolver springs--both mainspring and rebound spring must be "balanced" in order to keep the rebound from getting sluggish. My general advice (and this applies to competition guns only) is to reduce the mainspring tension first, until you start to get misfires with good match ammo, then bring the mainspring tension back up to create a good solid margin of reliability. At this the rebound spring will probably seem heavier than necessary. Then gradually reduce the tension on the rebound spring (I do this by clipping coils, some use different weights of aftermarket springs, either method can work fine) to the point where it is comfortable and light, but stop before you get to where the trigger no longer has a nice solid rebound feel.

This will probably require some experimentation (and maybe an extra rebound spring in case you clip too much off!) The goal is a nice light action that you can still cycle as fast as your finger speed and coordination will allow. You do not want the short-strokes and double-clutches that come with taking too much off the trigger rebound spring. When it's right, you'll know it.

I've been doing this stuff a long time, and I can usually come pretty close to the correct point on the first try--but not always. I was doing the action on my back-up 625 earlier this year, and thought I had it just perfect. It was fine when I was shooting it out back. Then I shot a match with it, and short-stroked the damn thing twice. Went back home, made a new rebound spring with 1/2 a coil more on it, problem solved!

It's probably more art than science, but it's art that anybody with a bit of mechanical aptitude can learn over time. One of the reasons I have stuck with factory springs is that they are easy and inexpensive to obtain, and if I cut one too far, I don't feel bad chucking it in the trash and starting over on another. Stock mainsprings can be bent to cover a wide range of tension, and can be re-adjusted by bending back and forth (as long as you don't get too carried away, it won't hurt anything). I recommend keeping the strain screw tightened and loc-tited all the way down.

Once you get things set up right, the spring adjustment job should last pretty much indefinitely, as long as there is some cushion built in for the inevitable endshake, slightly off-center primer hits, etc., that come from sheer mileage and wear. My old pin revolver still lights 'em up 100% even after many years. As long as I use (repeat after me.....) Federal primers seated to below flush.

[Northern Xtreme]

Do you hand seat the primers on loaded ammo after you put it through the progressive press?

I have a friend that does that, but it makes me cringe.

[haras]

Do you hand seat the primers on loaded ammo after you put it through the progressive press?I have a friend that does that, but it makes me cringe.

I assume you mean he re-seats (checks them). He may very have a problem, but who would want to chance it?

For the sake of reloading newbies. DO NOT FOLLOW THIS PRACTICE!!!

[Carmoney]

Primers can be hand-seated before running them through the press.

Interestingly, Patrick Sweeney published an article in one of the mainstream gun magazines in the past couple years where he discussed re-seating primers on loaded ammo. He did this on untold thousands upon thousands of rounds, with nary a problem. (He also acknowledged that he had decided to discontinue this practice, because of the possible safety issues.)

[aerosigns]

You know I heard that Ken Tapp used to do that too until one lit off in his, nearly taking his hand off.

We play it pretty loose on some things, but other things it's best to go right by the book.

[Waltermitty]

You can get primers seated just fine on most progressives, you may need to make some special adjustments to get there, like shimming the primer anvil. My ammo is 100% on my 5.25# trigger.

I've never had factory ammo FTF either, although I don't burn much of it. Lately I've switched to Federal factory ammo only just to add a margin of safety, but I just finished off a box of Speer Gold Dots in the past couple of months with no problems.

I add this comment not because I necessarily use my competition revolvers for self defense, (although I have little doubt it would function) but to point out that it is possible to use factory ammo on occasion if circumstances require. Eh, Team Bunny Fart Captain?

[RePete]

RePete, it's not the bobbed hammer creating the problem. Contrary to popular belief, lightening the hammer will improve primer ignition efficiency. Guarantee ya.

I should clarify that all this talk about super-light actions is for the competition arena only. On a carry or defense gun, bobbed hammers are fine, but you do want full-power (but not necessarily "over-power") springs.

To ensure 100% primer ignition, most of us competition wheelgunners use only Federal primers, and many of us (particularly those of us who have not yet invested in a Dillon 1050) take the extra step of hand-seating the primers to below flush. With properly-prepared ammo, my 625 with its 5.25 pound action will NEVER misfire.

I won't debate this as there may be some truth here.

Point 2. I assumed comp guns only.

But another benefit of leaving the hammer spur is that you can thumb the hammer slightly and spin the cylinder to check for high primers.

RePete.

[haras]

...to check for high primers.

Naaa... if you want to go to the trouble of checking them (I do for big matches) rub your finger across the base of each case to feel that the primer is below center. If your old hands are callused from years of hard work find someone to check them for you. Hey, there's another reason to have kids, eh?

[RePete]

...to check for high primers.

Naaa... if you want to go to the trouble of checking them (I do for big matches) rub your finger across the base of each case to feel that the primer is below center. If your old hands are callused from years of hard work find someone to check them for you. Hey, there's another reason to have kids, eh?

That's just the final check at the match. They have already been checked when the go into the boxes.

[Carmoney]

I used to religiously do the spin-check before shooting steel and pins with my wheelies. With bobbed hammers, that meant easing a little pressure onto the trigger. That was fine at these matches, but it's definitely not kosher in IPSC/USPSA, where it appears to be a violation of the rules to stick your finger in the trigger guard while loading on the line (although with certain types of production-class autos, you have to pull the trigger to lower the hammer). I did notice one high-profile revolver shooter using his trigger finger to spin-check his gun before each stage at Nationals this year, but nobody said anything about it and I certainly didn't care.

When I started shooting IPSC a couple years ago I decided as long as I ensured that all my primers were well-seated, and made sure each moonclip dropped down against the cylinder face before driving to the match (without bothering to close the gun), that would be good enough. After all, you can only spin-check the first moonclip of each stage, right? Turns out I was right, and have had no high-primer problems using that routine.

To further Waltermitty's viewpoint, the machine can do the job if you're careful and have it set up right. The best of all worlds is if you're fortunate to own a Dillon 1050, which primes on the downstoke and can be adjusted to consistently prime to the exact desired depth. (Some day when my ship comes in I will own one of those machines.....)

After Jim's experience, I decided to see if my gun would run 100% with Wally-World Winchester White Box .45 ammo. Nope--only about 98% and a click now and then. But, I found that if I take my hand-priming tool and re-seat the primers (carefully, and away from my groin!), they will work 100%. I try to remember to take my hand-priming tool along with me to out-of-town matches if there's any chance I might have to buy ammo, I actually wound up using it on some borrowed ammo to make it through the Summer Blast back in the summer after stage malfunctions caused me to have multiple reshoots and I ran clean out of bullets. I think Sweeney had to do the same thing at the World Shoot when his ammo got lost on the barge between here and Ecuador.

I'm not saying I recommend this idea to others, but it's worth knowing about in case of emergencies.

Edited November 27, 2006 by Carmoney

[slflr]

I have enough moon clips to to take 500+ clipped rounds to a match. I hand seat my primers and load my moon clips at home before heading for the match. I spin check every clip for every match before I go out the door. This insures that the hole system is functioning and that there are no high primers, bent moonclips, or fat rounds that are not going to go bang. I pull the trigger just enough to release the cyl stop and spin the cylinder. You will be supprised at the differences you will feel in the individual loaded moon clips if you have a tight cyl/frame fit fore and aft.

[aerosigns]

I add this comment not because I necessarily use my competition revolvers for self defense, (although I have little doubt it would function) but to point out that it is possible to use factory ammo on occasion if circumstances require. Eh, Team Bunny Fart Captain?

It has been my experience that although I prefer to use Federal 150's, I am able to purchase Remington .45 acp off the rack, so to speak, and have 100% reliability.

Now that I have a cool trigger pull gauge just like Waltermitty, I know that I have a 6# trigger and anything on the Walmart shelf will go about 99% of the time. (But most of it shoots so badly even if it had went off it probably would have been a mike.)

For future use also, I have considered carrying one additional 20# main spring just in case. Because you never want to say never.

[cking]

I've worked with three different hammer setups on my 625. Factory, Bobbed, Randy Lee.

Trust me the Randy Lee is well beyond what can be done with a grinder. I also believe that Randy made some subtle changes in the DA sear area.

Lock time is much better, was able to reduce the rebound and lower the main spring tension, and still lite wolf primers which are fairly hard.

I bought S&W DA only hammer for my model 19-5, while nice it still is a massive heavy hammer.

Trust me you'll like the Randy HAmmer!!!

[Carmoney]

Trust me the Randy Lee is well beyond what can be done with a grinder. I also believe that Randy made some subtle changes in the DA sear area.

Uh, actually the Randy hammer does not even come with a double-action sear installed. You're talking about a fitting issue, which can be accomplished with either the Randy hammer or a modified factory hammer.

[mshotwell]

WOW Thanks for all the help. I didn't expect all this info. After bobbing my hammer, I went back and took alot more weight out of it.

Shotwell

[cking]

If you ask him too he will include a DA sear spring and pins. Interesting thing was that his sear is longer than the replacements I get from Brownells. Also the sear is kicked out further than any factory sear and angle on sear tip is greater than factory sear.

Thus his hammer contacted the trigger nose flat further in, and road the flat area more than any factory trigger I've seen. I've tried too duplicate this on factory hammers with new sears, and they were all too short.

"Uh, actually the Randy hammer does not even come with a double-action sear installed. You're talking about a fitting issue, which can be accomplished with either the Randy hammer or a modified factory hammer."

[Carmoney]

Thus his hammer contacted the trigger nose flat further in, and road the flat area more than any factory trigger I've seen.

If you're talking about lengthening the arc of hammer travel, Randy has acknowledged here on this forum that this is one method he sometimes uses to achieve those super-light actions (3 or 3.5 pounds) some shooters want. This is the same reason a Python has always popped primers with less spring tension than a Smith.

However, I believe Randy had indicated that his aftermarket hammer is designed with working surfaces that replicate standard factory dimensions so that it can be readily dropped into any gun by simply installing the stock DA sear. That being the case, the real difference in Randy's hammer is the lower weight. And as I have indicated, a stock hammer can be modified to weigh the same, or less, than the Apex hammer.

The Randy hammer is a fine, well-made product that is an excellent option for some shooters, particularly those who are not interested in doing their own whittling work. And Randy's action work is wonderful stuff (although I personally prefer a bit more trigger rebound)--I was one of the first to recommend and promote his work on this forum and elsewhere.

But I think you might be surprised how nice a revo action can be created with the home-done version!