Two String Stage And Fte

[Shooter Grrl]

Yes I see your point( I have argued thispoint with many a RO, I personally don't like FTE as a penalty ) but try arguing with a CRO at a major. They will give you a FTE.

PS How to you rule on 11 shots?

I *AM A CRO* and at a major match or any match for that matter, there is no way in hell I'd assess an FTE without assessing a miss to go along with it! If there's holes in the target, twas engaged.

The proper way to have scored this was to tape and score in between strings - then you would have given the FTE and miss on the first string. But again, since it was comstock and apparently the course description did not specify penalties in the briefing, I personally would have not assessed any. (See my congratulatory comment on successful gaming)

[BSeevers]

Yes I see your point( I have argued thispoint with many a RO, I personally don't like FTE as a penalty ) but try arguing with a CRO at a major. They will give you a FTE.

PS How to you rule on 11 shots?

I *AM A CRO* and at a major match or any match for that matter, there is no way in hell I'd assess an FTE without assessing a miss to go along with it! If there's holes in the target, twas engaged.

The proper way to have scored this was to tape and score in between strings - then you would have given the FTE and miss on the first string. But again, since it was comstock and apparently the course description did not specify penalties in the briefing, I personally would have not assessed any. (See my congratulatory comment on successful gaming)

Kath

So answer this one, again. He shot 11 shots at 12 targets. That's not enough to exercise common sense? Oh and as I said the T12 was maybe 5 feet away. I'll vouce for the fact that I could see it.

We should have scored between strings but welcome to the real club world. It was the MD's call and I understand why. When you all(me included) start lining up at 8 AM to set up the match and RO and stay to tear down, he might not make these calls to reduce time and effort.

It had the standard -10 miss -10 procedural,-10 no-shoot language in the course description, it was USPSA match. So I might have given the shooter a Unsportmanslike award(not a DQ I mean a boobie prize) but no kodo's for gaming. That's not gaming. The course description said engage T1-T12 with 1 rd each. Anything else is just wrong.

Edited November 7, 2006 by BSeevers

[open17]

I *AM A CRO* and at a major match or any match for that matter, there is no way in hell I'd assess an FTE without assessing a miss to go along with it! If there's holes in the target, twas engaged.

The proper way to have scored this was to tape and score in between strings - then you would have given the FTE and miss on the first string. But again, since it was comstock and apparently the course description did not specify penalties in the briefing, I personally would have not assessed any. (See my congratulatory comment on successful gaming)

Legallity of the stage: Probably OK under the at a level I match under US1.1.5.1. All that

isn't according to the rules is the round count, otherwise it's a standard exercise.

Scoring: I'm assuming that the stage briefing read "best 2 per IPSC". There were 2 holes

when it was scored, so how could you justify a miss?

1 FTE, no other penalty.

If the course description had read "tape and score between strings", then 1 FTE, 1M for

the first string. However, it is not required to score/tape between strings in the US.

US 6.1.1

[Scott R]

In my opinion this stage clearly is not supported by USPSA rules as only Standard Exercises may have multiple strings and then must be Virginia Count or Fixed Time. Also the component strings cannot require more than 6 rounds without a mandatory reload.

1.2.2 Special Courses of Fire:

1.2.2.1 “Standard Exercises” must not require more than 24 rounds

to complete. Component strings must not require more than

6 rounds (12 rounds if a mandatory reload is specified).

6.1.2 Standard Exercise – A course of fire consisting of more than one

separately timed component strings. Scores, with any penalties

deducted, are accumulated on completion of the course of fire to

produce the final stage results. Standard Exercises must only be

scored using Virginia Count or Fixed Time. The course of fire for

each component string may require a specific shooting position,

procedure and/or one or more mandatory reloads. Only one

Standard Exercise of a maximum of 24 rounds is allowed in

IPSC sanctioned Level IV or higher matches.

To further justify this stage without quoting rules to support your opinion only muddies the water.

[Chris Keen]

See what you started Bender ???

[Micah]

See what you started Bender ???

Knowledge is power, and this place makes everyone super-strong

[bobert1]

At least I don't feel so bad for my indecision. I still have so much to learn.

[Jim Norman]

So,

We make the briefing read:

...Engage T-1 to T-12 with one round each, with a mandatory reload before enging the last target. String two... ...Engage T-1 to T-12 with one round each, with a mandatory reload before enging the last target.

BTW, some one said the shooter did this to avoid a reload?

The stage require 24 hits. Production or L-10, 11 in gun at the start. Shoot 11 to slidelock, no reload, one target not engaged.

String two, start with 11 in gun, same problem, reload and shoot two at the last target?, on reload.

Definately a FTE on string one. Since the COF read Comstock, you can't penalize an extra shot or hit, and you can't penalize a Mike as ther is no Mike.

The COF is not legal, but it was probably fun.

The problem with stages that don't follow the rules and this one didn't is that loopholes open wide and swallow up the shooters that played it straight. and that is sadly wrong. Our rules are not perfect, they aren't even all that close, but they do work for most things. THe things they don't allow we can address elsewhere and probably should.

So scoring for this illegal stage, 24 hits scored in what ever time taken. One Proceedural for failure to follow the course description is all the rules support.

Jim

[Flexmoney]

OK...illegalities of the stage being ignored...

You can only give an FTE when a shooter doesn't shoot at a target at all...within a course of fire (strings aren't covered by the rules, so aren't applicable).

We are looking at something similar here, but it's not a 9.5.6 violation.

9.5.6 A competitor who fails to shoot at each scoring target in a course

of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty

per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate

penalties for misses (see Rule 10.2.7).

Here is where the rule book covers this:

9.4.5 In a Virginia Count or Fixed Time Course of Fire:

US9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. shooting more than the required rounds

on a target, but shooting at fewer targets than specified in

any string),

will incur one procedural penalty per target not

engaged in any string.

This penalty will not be applied if the

written stage briefing specifically authorizes stacked shots

.

And, if the rule book didn't cover that specifically, we would still have the option to award a penalty for simply failing to follow the written procedure...which said "engage T1-T12 in string one". Under that, the shooter had one instance of not following the procedure...one penalty (this is where it looks like an FTE, acts like an FTE, but it's really a simple procedural and falls under 10.2.2, instead of 9.5.6).

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in

the written stage briefing will incur 1 procedural penalty for each

occurrence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant

advantage during non-compliance, the competitor may be

assessed 1 procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single

penalty (e.g. firing multiple shots contrary to the required

position or stance).

Summary:

Since this was VC, the RO's call should be 1 penalty under US 9.4.5.3.

If it had not been VC, then our good old FTE penalty under may have applied, but only if he failed to shoot at the target at all within the cof.

And, 10.2.2 would cover it all anyway...plus a few other things (say it was a comstock El Prez-style and the shooter skipped T1 on the first pass...10.2.2 would cover that as not following the written procedure).

---------------------------

Now, as a shooter...with the stage being illegal...you can accept your score sheet and go on. Or...you could have the stage tossed out (heck, even a third party could arb and get the stage tossed).

----------------------------

EDIT: I just re-read the stage as described (I had read it yesterday). I realize now that the stage was NOT VC, it was Comstock. So, leaving off the legalities of the stage, the rule to use would be 10.2.2

As I undertand the description, the shooter was to engage T1-T12 in the first string. The shooter did not follow that procedure in one instance.

[wide45]

What is the official ruling?

The official answer is however they chose to score is at that match.

They made up rules to run the stage, you pretty much have to go by the rules they made up to score it.

Not trying to be righteous.

We have all seen illegal stages. It is sad, but there will be more.

[Micah]

The club in question always sets up challenging and fun matches. What I WILL do now is confer with the RO if I believe that the way that I plan to shoot a stage might be contriversial.

[mda]

The club in question always sets up challenging and fun matches. What I WILL do now is confer with the RO if I believe that the way that I plan to shoot a stage might be contriversial.

Yes, this club does setup challenging stages. BUT, in doing so they some times fail to follow the basic stage design rules as setup by USPSA and this is the end result.

I shot the this stage at the same match and did not see any advantage to skipping a reload, you had two ports but had to move to three different positions to see all the targets. You had to move anyway so the reload would have not taken any extra time.

1 procedural for failure to follow written stage procedure, no misses as two scoring shots on each target.

MDA

[Scott R]

What is the official ruling?

The official answer is however they chose to score is at that match.

They made up rules to run the stage, you pretty much have to go by the rules they made up to score it.

Not trying to be righteous.

We have all seen illegal stages. It is sad, but there will be more.

Hmmm.....Official by who's standards?

The fact that this was posted in "USPSA/IPSC Rules" my assumption was that he was asking what the ruling should be under USPSA rules. The truth is it is not possible to apply USPSA rules to a stage that is not designed within the parameters of one of the types of courses as outlined in the USPSA Rule Book.

Having said that, understand that I am not trying to slam the course designer or anyone else for that matter. But I would like to point out that in my opinion situations like this create confusion and controversy which ultimately detract from the sport. Imagine yourself as a relatively new shooter or a crossover from one of the other disciplines and find yourself in the middle of such confusion. USPSA has probably one of the most comprehensive rule books out there and its not that difficult to design stages that not only comply with the rules but remain fun as well. All it would take is for stage designers to run stage ideas by one of the clubs senior members who has good rule knowledge and ask for help or suggestions. It's not that difficult to mold pretty much any stage design to fit the rules. The key to avoid confusion and controversy is to fix them before the match as opposed to trying to somehow twist the rules to fit the stage.

Oh.........and I do on occasion go to outlaw matches that are run under "Bubba's Rules" and have just as much fun. But before I leave the house I know what to expect.

[Flexmoney]

Scott R,

Fantastic post !!!

[omnia1911]

I agree that the stage is illegal. It should have been scored Virginia Count with mandatory reloads.

With that said, is failing to shoot at a target in string 1 really a violation of 10.2.2? If you believe that not shooting at a target is a failure to follow the written stage procedures, then why aren't we applying 10.2.2 each time we also apply 9.5.6/10.2.7 (FTE penalty), thereby assessing two ten point penalties when a target is not engaged with at least 1 round?

Failing to engage targets in a stage cannot be considered a failure to follow the written stage procedures. Only 9.5.6/10.2.7 and US9.4.5.3 can apply. We should not be using 10.2.2 as USPSA's defacto "failure to do right" rule.

So, what does that leave us as a remedy in this case? We can make up an applicable rule to cover this illegal stage, or comply with the rule book and toss the stage.

If the stage had been scored Virginia Count, and the competitor shot the stage as it has been explained here, I would have issued a procedural penalty for not engaging the target in string 1, unless the written stage procedures authorized the stacking of shots (US9.4.5.3). If stacking was authorized, I would have scored the competitor as shot, and with 1 extra shot penalty on the second string in either case.

Edited November 13, 2006 by omnia1911

[omnia1911]

The stage require 24 hits. Production or L-10, 11 in gun at the start. Shoot 11 to slidelock, no reload, one target not engaged.

String two, start with 11 in gun, same problem, reload and shoot two at the last target?, on reload.

Jim

Because of the way the competitor shot the stage in this case, he made one of his two necessary reloads for completing a 24 round stage, while shooting in Production, off the clock.

It may, or may not, have been an advantage, but doing anything in a stage off the clock should never be dismissed.

[omnia1911]

Yes I see your point( I have argued thispoint with many a RO, I personally don't like FTE as a penalty ) but try arguing with a CRO at a major. They will give you a FTE.

PS How to you rule on 11 shots?

I *AM A CRO* and at a major match or any match for that matter, there is no way in hell I'd assess an FTE without assessing a miss to go along with it! If there's holes in the target, twas engaged.

The proper way to have scored this was to tape and score in between strings - then you would have given the FTE and miss on the first string. But again, since it was comstock and apparently the course description did not specify penalties in the briefing, I personally would have not assessed any. (See my congratulatory comment on successful gaming)

Kath

So answer this one, again. He shot 11 shots at 12 targets. That's not enough to exercise common sense? Oh and as I said the T12 was maybe 5 feet away. I'll vouce for the fact that I could see it.

We should have scored between strings but welcome to the real club world. It was the MD's call and I understand why. When you all(me included) start lining up at 8 AM to set up the match and RO and stay to tear down, he might not make these calls to reduce time and effort.

It had the standard -10 miss -10 procedural,-10 no-shoot language in the course description, it was USPSA match. So I might have given the shooter a Unsportmanslike award(not a DQ I mean a boobie prize) but no kodo's for gaming. That's not gaming. The course description said engage T1-T12 with 1 rd each. Anything else is just wrong.

Comstock scoring cannot define the number of rounds to be fired at a target in the written stage procedures.

[omnia1911]

As a side note, I find it peculiar that 1.2.2.1 requires a mandatory reload if 7 up to 12 rounds are used in a component string, but the rule doesn't specify where the reload has to be. Technically, it could be after the the last shot is fired in the string, off the clock, and still comply with the rule.

1.2.2.1 “Standard Exercises” must not require more than 24 rounds

to complete. Component strings must not require more than

6 rounds (12 rounds if a mandatory reload is specified).

[DKSComp]

Micah;

I am truly sorry, I totally missed the illegalities of this stage when it was set up. Guess this is what happens when senile old men are the only ones that are interested in running matches.

Dave

[Micah]

Micah;

I am truly sorry, I totally missed the illegalities of this stage when it was set up. Guess this is what happens when senile old men are the only ones that are interested in running matches.

Dave

Dave,

C'mon! You don't owe me, or anyone an apology! I ALWAYS look forward to shooting your matches, and am foaming at the mouth for next season to get here!

Thank you very much for an amazing season and all of your dedication to our sport

Note to add: As the OP, I wouold like to ask the mods to lock this thread. I believe that my question had been answered, and do not wish for anyone, particularly the wonderful folks that spend so much time and energy, to become disenchanted.

-Micah