Setting Up An Ar-15 For Highpower, 3gun, And Self Defense

[atek3]

If you were going to have one AR-15 lower and multiple uppers for various situations how would you configure the lower?

Specifically the I'll have a 6.5 grendel upper for highpower and long range and a 223 upper for 3gun and self-defense.

Which buttstock and fire control parts would you recommend? Is the JP trigger reliable enough for self defense?

atek3

[Viggen]

For High Power your trigger needs to be 4.5lb minimum, if I remember correctly.

Standard buttstock and grip are also required in HP.

Edited November 1, 2006 by Viggen

[uscbigdawg]

First figure out which division of Highpower you're going into. Sounds like you want to do "space gun", or whatever it's called. If that, then, multiple stocks is probably the way to go.

As for JP triggers being reliable enough, after more than a few military triggers I've had take a puke, and my JP never having done so, I wish I could take my JP to work every day (even though John Paul would probably say otherwise ).

Rich

[George]

I would get a DCM type Service Rifle upper with a 20" SS match grade 1:7 bbl, free float A2 handguard set and 1/2 Minute A2 rear. NO muzzle brake, target crown on bbl and standard A2 gasblock/front sight tower. Take a look at the JP Rifles CMP upper to see the feature set Highpower Service Rifle wants. You really do want a 1:7 to properly stabilize the 80's used for 600 yards. A 1:8 is sometimes iffy there IMO.

A spacegun for NRA High Power really wants a dedicated lower if you are gonna' go that way for real. If you don't build a spacegun for real, don't bother. Look at Scott Medesha's stuff to see what I mean

www.medeshafirearms.com

Set a JP trigger up for 4.5 lbs crisp inside a box stock A2 lower and that will fill the bill for Service Rifle, IPSC and Social/Anti-Social usage.

The IPSC and Social/Anti-Social uppers are your choice and the options there are endless. I would maybe look at the Grendel for Social usage if I wanted some real projectile mass downrange, but it sure ain't a good choice for NRA High Power shooting, no, no, no!

[SinistralRifleman]

The rifles I use for multi-gun are the same ones I use for training and the same ones I carry around in my car or sit next to my desk at work. I don't use anything that compromises reliability. My current configuration of choice is a 16" midlength barrel with cav comp, rifle length rail system, and Leupold CQT.

I don't shoot DCM or highpower so no commentary there.

[atek3]

I would maybe look at the Grendel for Social usage if I wanted some real projectile mass downrange, but it sure ain't a good choice for NRA High Power shooting, no, no, no!

I'm curious about that statement. The 6.5 grendel can't hold its own ballistically vs. 6XC or 260, but it's much much better than 223 and 308. A well set up space gun is probably the easiest gun to shoot HM scores with this side of a T2K. I don't see how you could go wrong with the grendel.

atek3

[George]

Well, fust off, it would have to be a bolt action, or spacegun to use that caliber in NRA High Power as only the US utilized military arms and the appropriate cartridges for them are allowed to be used in the Service Rifle division of NRA type High Power Rifle competition.

You have to use 30.06 in a Springfield, or Garand. .308 in an M1A/M-14, or .223 in an M-16/AR-15 to compete in Service Rifle Division for NRA/CMP/DCM competition.

Second, the guns have to be in externally specific configurations that resemble the military version to a great degree, including sights and slings and handguards.

[atek3]

I know the rules of highpower, I should have been more clear I want to shoot a match rifle, not a service rifle. if I wanted a service rifle I'd go buy a white oak DCM upper.

[Dan Sierpina]

As modular as an AR is, it's still best to build separate AR's if you want to shoot NRA Highpower. The Grendal is not legal in Service Rifle, no matter what it looks like. A two stage trigger is preferred for Highpower, not so in action rifle. The hot setup for a two stage AR trigger is the Geseille, (I'm sure I killed the spelling!) It's designed for fast lock time, the biggest dissadvantage to a space gun. The do weigh triggers at the bigger Highpower matches. Service rifle requires 4 1/2 pounds, 4 3/4 is better due to the way some people use the weights. With a two stage trigger this is easily overcome with the difference between the 1st and 2nd stages.

Now for self defense. You're going to school at Dartmouth, I'd use a 12 ga for self defense!

[No.343]

I'm not sure that I would want my JP trigger in a self defense rifle, but I could shoot it in a HP match. As was already mentioned most HP shooter prefer 2 stage triggers. Space gun shooters have stocks with multiple adjustments. You might look at some of the offerings that Champion's Choice has. I would get a stock that allowed adjustment for the different HP positions and choose a comfortable stock for IPSC. The A2 stock fits most guys. Those of us who are a little shorter like the A1 stock. However, I think that it would be best to have two separate rifles.

[uscbigdawg]

Honestly dude, I'd just build a rifle specifically for Highpower. Then another rifle for 3-Gun/tactical purposes.

Rich

[George]

Atek, if you want to shoot a match rifle, then talk to Medesha, or just get a Tubb. Look at the 6.0mm variants for caliber as that's what's winning in High Power Match rifles at the moment. Maybe the 6.5mm projectiles will have their day, someday, but for the moment the skinnier fella's are doing the winnin' at the 600 line. What David Tubb uses is usually the next big thing for everyone else in High Power and he ain't shootin' the Grendel yet ;-)

[Dan Sierpina]

Atek, if you want to shoot a match rifle, then talk to Medesha, or just get a Tubb.

From what I've heard for quite a while, Medesha's delivery is really hit of miss. Excellent quality however.

Another option for a highpower match rifle is a tube gun. Two different ones are available for Remington short actions. MAK uses Accuracy International mags, Gary Elisio machines specific mags out of bar stock, 6 BR only though. Info can be found on Elisio's setup on www.6mmBR.com

[George]

Yes, Medesha is slow, but man is his stuff "Trick"!

I would do the Tubb in 6mm, or maybe even go for a .308 spacegun just to not deal with oddball brass. The .308 is fine for 600 with a scenar up front and a lot easier to load for than a custom caliber ;-)

[Dan Sierpina]

Yes, Medesha is slow, but man is his stuff "Trick"!

I would do the Tubb in 6mm, or maybe even go for a .308 spacegun just to not deal with oddball brass. The .308 is fine for 600 with a scenar up front and a lot easier to load for than a custom caliber ;-)

George, what I've heard is beyond slow. The Tubb is reputed to be the hot setup, but, the price! Then the price of 6XC brass, or forming it. The 6 BR will do it all out to 600 with ease.

[pmd]

If you are looking for a "Space Gun" on an AR platform you should contact John Hollinger http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/ very well respected and quick turn around time. He also makes TUBB 200 barrels too..

If you are looking for match iron sights - David Tubb is selling some used Warner sights (best sights IMHO) from his personal stash at the Long Range forum http://www.long-range.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7022

[atek3]

it's all mainly an issue of price sensitivity. Next spring I'd love to shoot highpower... but I'm not going to shell 2k-3.5k on a dedicated HP rifle. adding 1000 dollars to the price of my 3gun AR for a dedicated match rifle upper is doable (I already have a set of very nice PNW aperature sights).

atek3

[Dan Sierpina]

it's all mainly an issue of price sensitivity. Next spring I'd love to shoot highpower... but I'm not going to shell 2k-3.5k on a dedicated HP rifle. adding 1000 dollars to the price of my 3gun AR for a dedicated match rifle upper is doable (I already have a set of very nice PNW aperature sights).

atek3

Then, go with another upper, and if possible another trigger system. Swapping to the 2 stage for Highpower is simple. You can buy less costly spacegun uppers from White Oak Armament. Connected with John Holliger, but Wilson barrels instead of Krieger or Pac Nor.

[George]

I have never had Scott build me a gun, but I have waited 3 months for a callback on a price for a custom riser block he keeps in stock. Thankfully it only took another 3 weeks for him to ship it after I paid for it ;-)

I have touched one of his spaceguns and let me tell you, the work is second to none. Worth waiting a bit for I guess, but the T2K is just too good of a choice nowadays to bother with anything else IMO.

Atek, a custom .223 spacegun upper with a 1:7 bbl throated for the big .223 VLD's would be a total winner on the 600 yard line and still be affordable to load for. It will clean the course (if you can) using just the SMMK 77's and 80's and be totally compatible with a standard AR lower with just a few tweaks.

What you give up by not going whole hawg spacegun with the lower is position tweaking adjustments that are the fine points behind a match gun compared to a service rifle. Just don't tell a High Master in Service Rifle that he needs an adjustable butt plate and cheekpiece to clean the course ;-)

You could just go with a 2-stage trigger in the lower to optimize for High Power and live with it for everything else, but my feeling is a real nice single stage JP build-in, set light and crisp will work well for both, if you want it to ;-)

Seat a SMK80 out to the lands in a properly throated 20"+ AR bbl, stuff 23-24+ grains of Varget/RL-15/AA2520 under it and there is absolutely no reason a .223 can't handle the 600 yard course just as well as an exotic recipe that costs mondo bux to cook up and burns the bbl like a Roman Candle. The SMK77 at 2900fps+ can whoop ass on anything else at 200 and 300 yards, in any wind if you can hold for it. The .223 can absolutely be a winner across the course in a match rifle, if you want it to be ;-)

Me, I'm all about shooting a just serviceable service rifle in High Power and seeing what I can do with that :-)

[uscbigdawg]

Personally, if I was doing Highpower, the T2k or a Tubegun would be it for me. Both get the job done and are tack drivers. Neither's price is unreasonable for what you get. Heck, Cooley and Voigt use their T2k's at Sniper team matches, if there's a question of durability.

Rich

[kurtm]

After you get into 3-gunning I doubt you will shoot much High Power, but I digress. For self defense run the Grendle!! A nice ballistic tip moving at 2400 would be just ducky. If I had that Grendle I would NEVER pick a .223 for social service. KURTM

[atek3]

I made expert in HP and shot a fair amount of 3gun. 3gun is more "fun" than highpower, but cleaning the 200 and 300 yard rapids in Highpower is an experience that just feels different.

The main problem I see with the grendel is that it's like the betamax of the 6.5 vs. 6.8 debate. It's basically superior in every way but one, no one supports it. Only 3 companies are licensed to make grendel rifles, only one major company makes ammo (wolf)... compare that to the support of 6.8 SPC, practically all the AR companies support it, remington makes ammo... no comparison.

atek3

[George]

but cleaning the 200 and 300 yard rapids in Highpower is an experience that just feels different

A, yup! Even better when you do it with an AR and A2 sights ;-)

[wsimpso1]

A Grendel for High Power? Please. A Grendel would be a serious disadvantage at 600 yards, not to mention frustrating if there is any wind.

High Power is 223 only in AR15's for Service Rifle. The Grendel would put you into Match Rifle. The short 6mm's own the bolt gun show, and Space Gunners usually just shoot 223 also. There are some folks shooting 22 PPC or 6mm PPC, and some in 243, 7-08 or 308. Then the guns become pretty specialized and heavy in that game, right down to the sights, cheekpieces, balance, everything. NRA Match Rifle is a pretty big equipment and fuss game, which is why many peolple shoot Service Rifle. Other than making the single-stage vs two-stage trigger and barrel weight decisions, you get to adjust the weight and balance, play with front sight post widths and rear sign hood and aperture sizes. Oh, and develop your load.

Now, if you kept it simple, your rifle could do Service Rifle three-gun, multigun, etc. The float tube in a good Service Rifle adds some weight but not a huge amount, and it would work in the various games as an Iron Sight Tactical, etc. It would still be kind of heavy and clumsy on close fast stuff that we do a lot of.

But the Grendel? That will just run up your ammo costs...

Billski

[atek3]

A Grendel for High Power? Please. A Grendel would be a serious disadvantage at 600 yards, not to mention frustrating if there is any wind.

But the Grendel? That will just run up your ammo costs...

Billski

ORLY?

please mods delete this thread. it went from marginally useful, to useless, to special olympics in 5 days.

thanks,

atek3