Finnish Ipsc 3 Gun Extravaganza

[George]

Hi Tommi, If it works out, I am going to try and get my sorry azz and my CTR-02 over there in July for at least the rifle match. Hope to see you in Hamina :-)

[Sako92S]

You also need to get your temporary export license from U.S State Department.

[bigbrowndog]

So can you guys provide us with a printable copy of the paperwork we will need?

trapr

[TommiF]

I'll try to find e-mailable version of papers needed in Finland border.

Paper has these columns:

1. Family name and given name.

2. Date and place of birth

3. Passport number and place of issue

4. Address

5. Country

6. EU-class (European Union citizens only)

7. Calibre/Gauge

8. Type of gun

9. Brand and serial number

10. Hollow point ammunition (yes/no)

The organizing committee will apply for the permit with the above forms as appendixes. The permits will be delivered in advance to the customs at Your entry point into Finland. For most this will be Helsinki-Vantaa international airport. If You are entering at any other point than Helsinki-Vantaa please inform us so that the papers and possible organizing committee personnel can be at the right place.

Tommi

[bigbrowndog]

Tommi, any idea how long it takes for paperwork to be completed, so we know how much time to allow authorities?

thanks trapr

[George]

Item 10. Hollow Point Ammunition (yes, no)

First, Does this mean that you are less likely to get approval for this type of ammo?

Second, If this is an issue, do Match Bullets that have hollow point style tips for jacket wrapping reasons count as "Hollow Points"?

Thanks,

[Carbon]

Tommi,

I am interested in attending could you or someone on your staff E-mail me directly? I still have questions about the required paperwork.

Thanks

Carl Carbon

carbon501@qosi.net

[TommiF]

Item 10. Hollow Point Ammunition (yes, no)

First, Does this mean that you are less likely to get approval for this type of ammo?

Second, If this is an issue, do Match Bullets that have hollow point style tips for jacket wrapping reasons count as "Hollow Points"?

Thanks,

If You come to Finland and You have chosen HP ammo, then You can travel with it etc. It's more like information. In Finland only HG HP ammunition are for restricted/limited. Needs additional permit.

Tommi

Tommi,

I am interested in attending could you or someone on your staff E-mail me directly? I still have questions about the required paperwork.

Thanks

Carl Carbon

carbon501@qosi.net

Carl,

Email sent.

Tommi

[Carbon]

Tommi,

Thank you for all your help. I'll look forward to meeting you in July.

Carl Carbon

[bigbrowndog]

Tommi, where can we get all the required info, paperwork at?

Trapr

[TommiF]

1. Family name and given name.

2. Date and place of birth

3. Passport number and place of issue

4. Address

5. Country

6. EU-class (European Union citizens only)

7. Calibre/Gauge

8. Type of gun

9. Brand and serial number

10. Hollow point ammunition (yes/no)

Hello all.

These is only info needed for paperwork. I will be collecting that information, with registration. Later....

Tommi

[gose]

Maybe I should try to fit it into my schedule as well....hmm...

Do you have any idea if it's possible to bring guns and ammo on the ferry from Sweden, since I most likely will stop by my family on my way to Finland ?

Edited January 6, 2007 by gose

[Carbon]

Anyone else from the states going to Finland? I'll be there.

Carl Carbon

[kurtm]

I'm not getting a real good feeling about this match. The scoring for thr 3-gun tournament is kind of up in the air, due to the fact that the Rifle match is the Nordic Rifle Championships, and the pistol match is like the Finnish Championships. So we might end up with people shooting a division to sandbag the results of the tournament. At the moment I am a bit leery. I will have to see a bit more about how they are going to mix it all together at the end before I jump on this one. Kurt Miller

[TommiF]

Actually the Shotgun match is also both Nordic and Finnish Championships and so is the pistol match too. This means that every division will be highly contested and there are no easy ones to pick. One really can't sandbag through this Tournament so Kurt got it backwards.

For example USPSA 2006 Limited Pistol Nationals had 220 competitors in limited and the same years USPSA Multigun Nationals had 23 competitors in limited. So which would be easier way to get your points shooting against 220 or 23...

If any questions about scoring, I try to help. Tournament rules can be downloaded from IPSC.ORG.

Tommi

[bigbrowndog]

I've seen dates for 2 different rifle matches, one billed as finnish, in july and one billed as nordic championships, in sept. one is part of a tournament, the other, believe is a stand alone match. I am correct or incorrect? Due to the information/talk on the Ipsc global village, pertaining to scoring, and manipulating divisions to allow use of minor calibers, to compete with higher score values, I to am LEERY.

Which is a shame because I was looking forward to shooting either match.

Trapr

manipulaing divisions is not the correct term, however allowing certain accepted, minor calibers to be scored with higher points than other minor calibers, is simply ridiculous IMO.

Edited January 30, 2007 by bigbrowndog

[George]

allowing certain accepted, minor calibers to be scored with higher points than other minor calibers, is simply ridiculous IMO

Say What!

I would be interested in hearing more on this. Sounds funny/strange to me 2!

IPSC Global Village eh! I will take a looksee'

[kurtm]

Okay, let me try to "splain it lucy". Let,s take "standard division" for the Standard TOURNAMENT that would be a pistol the fits the box a standard shotgun and of course standard rifle ( iron to you continentals )..Okay what is a standard pistol....well in this case it would be a revolver, production, or standard ( limited) pistol. What is a standard shotgun, well in this case it would be a pump OR semi.

Now since the Pistol match is seporate and the Shotgun match is seporate as is the rifle let,s take a look at how this will work. Say we got a guy who is like Jerry Miculek with a revolver, and he knows he can SMOKE the rest of the 7 people who shoot revolver, so he 100% the pistol match, now he knows he isn't a match at all with a semi-auto shotgun compaired to Reine, or myself, but he also knows no-one he is going to shoot against is any good with a pump shotgun, so he enters MANUAL standard and 100% that because no-one any good is shooting pump! so going into the rifle part in "standard he is at 100% of BOTH matches while not really stressing himself. Mean while our hero ends up 4th in the pistol match with standard ( our limited )pistol and there are like 15 of the BEST pistol shooters in Europe in standard so it is a darn hard contest. The "match points" are what we are counting here, so lets move on Hero then goes to town with a shotgun and manages to win the "standard" shotgun match, but doesn't ace every stage because there are guys like Reine winning a fair amount of stages, so he heads into the rifle with LESS match points than the guy who picked and chose his divisions.

Now how do award the winner of the match, or do we have as many winner as there are combonations of fire arms?? So we have a revolver/pump/standasd SEMI-AUTO rifle winner? Don't forget there is also a standard MANUALLY OPERATED rifle division also!! So do we have a standard pistol/pump shotgun/standard MANUALLY operated standard division winner?? Now you see why I am a bit leery. Once this is adiquitly explained to me I will be one of the first to sign up as after all I have a title to defend in the Nordic Rifle, but right now it is a bit too ambiguous! KURT MILLER

[bigbrowndog]

I had forgotten about the shopping for the least competitive division, part that kurt is refering to. That also is quite funny, George the major / minor thing i am talking about is listed under "changing the power factor" in the RIFLE TOPIC.

trapr

[George]

I vote for 297pf for major and 231 for intermediate and let's take minor down to 127.35 to get some real poof loads going with the mousephart crowd!

Sheesh, all this to get an AR to major without it being a .308 ;-)

[EvilPJ]

OK, Tommi asked me to try to clear some things now. So here goes...

First, the changing of rifle PF's or scoring has absolutely nothing to do with the Finnish Tournamet. There won't be any changes to scoring or to PF's. Those people in the Village are discussing things which might change at the earliest in 2008. So please don't confuse people with this in this topic.

Trapr: The Norwegian Rifle Championships is in September and it is stand alone rifle match of 12 stages. It will be a good match too.

Kurt has some wrong facts here. There is no manual rifle division in this Tournament in any case. And also note that if there are less than 10 shooters in any Division it is not recognized in Tournament (Kurt's Revolver example would fall in to this). People can still shoot the component matches with these equipment for Nordic/Finnish titles if they want but they won't be scored to Tournament aggregate if the division doesn't meet Level III criteria.

Now if we keep the Standard Tournament as an example here. Think about it as the way to find who is the best shooter with iron sights. If you force some talented people out of their 'own' iron sighted divisions (pump-shotgun, production pistol, revolver) and make them use a platform they are not so familiar with (so to shoot in standard/limited) then you really don't find out who is absolutely the BEST 3-Gun Shooter with Iron Sights. So this is a different approach than for example in US Multigun Nationals but people do things differently around the globe.

Competition for titles will be hard and because of all the combinations nothing is over before the last shot in the last match is fired. Certainly it doesn't make much sense to count the points up like six months before the first Tournament bullets even fly. When you shoot total of 42 stages there won't be easy way out. You need to earn all the points the hard way.

[kurtm]

Okay, since we aren't yet there let me ask it another way. What EXACTLY are the divisions, and please include each gun type in that division? (For example Standard Division = Standard pistol, Standard semi-auto shotgun and a Standard semi-auto rifle).

I am just too slow to figure out the neuances of your answer, PLEASE be VERY specific as to what is included in each division. Thank you. Kurt

[EvilPJ]

I just realized that you guys might not have seen the official information about available Tournament divisions. So I'll post it here too.

Available Restricted Tournament Divisions for the Finnish 3-Gun Tournament are: Open, Modified, and Standard.

You can find allowed Division combinations for Component Matches here below.

Open Restricted Tournament:

Rifle: Semiauto Open, Semiauto Standard

Pistol: Open, Modified, Standard, Production, Revolver

Shotgun: Open, Modified, Standard Semiauto, Standard Manual

Must have at least one Open result from Component Matches

Modified Restricted Tournament:

Rifle: Semiauto Standard

Pistol: Modified, Standard, Production, Revolver

Shotgun: Modified, Standard Semiauto, Standard Manual

Must have at least one Modified result from Component Matches

Standard Restricted Tournament:

Rifle: Semiauto Standard

Pistol: Standard, Production, Revolver

Shotgun: Standard Semiauto, Standard Manual

Please contact the Tournament organisers if you have any doubts or questions about which Restricted Tournament Division you should choose.

If a Tournament Division doesn't meet the minimum requirement of at least ten shooters, that Tournament Division will not be included in the Tournament. After the registration deadline the shooters will be notified beforehand if their choice of Tournament Division is not fulfilling the stated criteria and they can change their overall Tournament Division before the first Component Match starts. Every Division in each Component Match must also fill the requirement minimum of ten shooters to be counted for overall Level III Tournament standings and for its awards. So the shooters must have a Level III recognised result from each of the Component Matches for their division and if applicable a Level III recognised result for any Categories they want to carry towards Tournament scores.

So in the Standard Division you must shoot semiauto standard rifle. You can choose to shoot either standard pump or semiauto for shotgun and for pistol you can shoot standard or production. The revolver is there but it probably won't make it to Tournament (less than 10 shooters).

[bigbrowndog]

Soooooooo, Evil pj. will standard auto and standard manual shotgun be scored separately or together?

As I understand it, I could shoot Production pistol, Standard auto rifle, and Standard manual shotgun, combine the points and be declared STANDARD CHAMPION?

Now, lets say five people, the top five in Production pistol, shoot and place (100%, 95%, 92%, 85%, and 80%) but they don't compete in any other part of the tournament. the sixth place person shoots all tournament components, does that person receive 100% of the production points for the tournament, or do they only get what they received for the Production component?

trapr

[EvilPJ]

Soooooooo, Evil pj. will standard auto and standard manual shotgun be scored separately or together?

Separately.

As I understand it, I could shoot Production pistol, Standard auto rifle, and Standard manual shotgun, combine the points and be declared STANDARD CHAMPION?

Correct.

Now, lets say five people, the top five in Production pistol, shoot and place (100%, 95%, 92%, 85%, and 80%) but they don't compete in any other part of the tournament. the sixth place person shoots all tournament components, does that person receive 100% of the production points for the tournament, or do they only get what they received for the Production component?

The sixth place shooter would not get the 100% he will only carry the points/percentage which he actually got from the component match to Tournament aggregate.