Scoring And Pasting Ahead Of The Shooter...

[99gski]

I think it really helps to move the stage along and as a shooter I don't mind it if the RO's start scoring early. I don't care for the "delegate" idea as much as I like what the RO's did here. There's just too many issues with the whole delegate concept for my tastes.

Julie,

While that is awful noble, I'm not sure how prudent it is.

Just at past Nationals, I have had RO's make mistakes on my scoring at least a half-dozen times (both to my detriment and to my benefit).

Hi Mr. Flexmoney!

Sorry you had the scoring mix ups. Mistakes do happen, in favor or not. The most we can do is our best to make things right. I have RO'ed a shooter or two as have most here and its not always the easiest job, but I suppose I am rather happy go lucky in that I feel that they/we try to do their best just as I do when I shoot the stages.

As for the noble part... do I like the delegate idea? Not really, for the many reasons that have already been addressed. Do I like it when the RO's stop if scoring if there is an issue? Well, I am comfortable with that and its a much more palatable solution than the delegate option.

Then again, if there were an easy solution we probably wouldn't be chatting about it

[ima45dv8]

Then again, if there were an easy solution we probably wouldn't be chatting about it

True!

(Come back and see us sometime....)

[99gski]

You know I will!!! I miss everyone already!

[eric nielsen]

This is a good thread.

Happy to read it thru all the way to here & see that every post looks like BE forums, none of them looked like GT forums. Yay!

This IS a new thing [shooting a stage without seeing your target score] and it's good to keep an eye on any problems and put in corrections where they are needed. Left unchecked it could grow into a big ugly issue.

[kevin c]

As a shooter I like to see my hits, but, maybe because I've never really had much at stake when it comes to overall placement, I rarely question the score called unless there's an truly glaring error. I figure the errors for and against even out overall.

For me then, I'd regret not having the chance to see my hits, but it's not because I might challenge the scoring. Heck, I've been known to correct RO's to my own detriment. I just want to see what I've done.

As an RO, I always try to give the shooter the opportunity to see a miss for himself. I'd try to do that as a follow-on scorer as well.

Definitely it should be announced that scoring while shooting will be done. A miss I'll call to the attention of the shooter, but I'm not going to slow down a major match by calling attention to every low scoring edge hit. That I'll leave to the shooter or the delegate as they see fit.

[Waltermitty]

Interesting how people say "Its necessary to run the match to get the shooters thru" This scoring without the shooter seeing targets is a very NEW thing. We have run plenty of 300 rd matches and 300 shooters doing it the old or in my mind the correct way. Most majors I have shot this year were finished at 4-5 PM.

I think a fair solution is to not paste until shooter sees the targets or at least anything within 1/2 inch of a higher scoring line.

I agree. The stages that have real time problems usually have too many props and activators to reset (which also causes too many reshoots and RM calls), too many strings, or something weird about it that takes a lot of time (like needing more time to get the first shot off than many stages need for total time or having 2-3 stages in one bay). I don't think this is a shooter driven issue and I don't think rushing the scoring is the better solution. The scoring time isn't that big a piece of the pie.

[Liota]

Delegates may be a necessary evil on some stages. Sometimes because there are a lot of targets, sometimes due to target reset. I don't have a problem with delegates. I would like to look at my targets as a shooter, but normally already know whether there is a hit on the target and where. My score, point-wise is generally no surprise to me. As long as the hits called are consistent with what I know is there, then there's no issue. Generally, if there is a miss, I get called over as a competitor to look. Again, generally, I know if there is a miss and will tell the RO that.

On the flip side, as an RO, I have been known to give the benefit of doubt to the competitor and pull out the overlay, even sometimes when I KNOW there is no hit there (because the competitor did not fire two rounds at the target and left me wishing I could say something).

If I am consistent in what I do, that overcomes some of my tiredness over the course of the day while I am ROing by keeping me on the right track, so that when I do lose track of where I am, it's relatively easy to find my place again.

On the matter of scoring, itself, there is only one way to score, accurately. If you knowingly/willfully give someone points they don't deserve, you do them (and all the other competitors) as much of a disservice as not awarding points they rightfully earned. By the same token, the competitor bears responsibility for looking at the scoresheet before signing it. If you don't agree, speak with the RO. Usually, the RO can describe in detail the target with the problem. Alpha-Mike or Alpha-"So near D but not enough" is much more memorable than 2-Alpha or Alpha-Charlie. Those memorable targets become stories later. Reference above, the story about the competitor who shot the Alpha-Mike because he didn't fire two rounds at the target. That happened over a year ago. I still remember exactly what the target looked like, what happened, my reaction, his reaction to the scoring.

All of the above aside, we are all human.

Liota

[BDH]

I've let this sit for a few days now before chiming in. Since area 6 was brought up by someone else I'll jump in there also. The way I understand scoring the RO calls it off and the clipboard RO repeats the score. This is a checks and balances thing going on. When they start scoring behind the shooter, there is no checks and balances going on.

Fireant,

First, I'm sorry you did not have a good experience at A6.

Second, I sort of disagree with your 'checks and balances' anology. I'm not 100% sure how other CRO's handle this, but when I have the clipboard in my hands, I focus on getting the correct scores recorded on the scoresheet. Very rarely do I look at the targets when I have the clipboard. I've found that looking at targets, and writing down scores is a quick way to screw up a scoresheet. I trust the RO calling the shots and the shooter looking over their shoulder to give me the correct score. At that moment, my job is to repeat the score I hear (to make sure I heard the call correctly), and to record it in the correct scoring box.

My goal is for everyone coming through my stages to have a positive experience, and to get a fair score. Sorry I let you down (but I'll try to do better next year!).....

CRO A6 S9

[Fireant]

I've found that looking at targets, and writing down scores is a quick way to screw up a scoresheet.

CRO A6 S9

This is exactly what normally happens when they score behind the shooter. The score keeper looks at the target and then writes down the score. The checks and balances is not the score keeper checking the targets, but rather the RO checking that the score keeper is writing down the correct score. When I'm blasting away down range and you have your ears on, you don't have a third RO calling off scores. Now we have it straight from a RO that that could lead to problems. The rest of my A6 experience was fine . It still grates me the wrong way that I was treated as an inconvience to your or whoever's master schedule. These matches are supposed to be fun and I stopped having fun for a little while there But, depending on RM's I'll be back again.

[BDH]

This is exactly what normally happens when they score behind the shooter.

Just to clarify... my comments where about how I handle the clipboard in a match, not specifically about A6. I ran this way through the 2006 MG Nats, Area 5, Limited Nats, and hopefully, both the Open Nats (I've only seen the stage on paper at this point), and Area 4. In none of those matches were we scoring behind the shooter. We were clearing the shooter, and they had the opportunity to follow us through the stage (which is ALWAYS my preference). I 'think' I am known as one of those RO's that can run a complex stage and keep it on time. Well, A6 was my breaking point because with the number of movers, the squad sizes, clearing the house, and the weather (depending on which day you shot), I just could not keep this stage moving (and I had a conversation with the MD about it after the match, so we should do better next year)...

Sorry for not being clear on that point (and I sure hope we can follow the same procedure at A6 2007 since I think Cindy 'sentenced' me to the shoot house again)...

Edited September 22, 2006 by BDH

[richardschennberg]

If you're pasting, always ask the shooter before pasting a target with one or more Mikes, or a no-shoot with an edge hit. I can see letting 1 or 2 points going unchallenged to expedite a crowded match, but 10 or 15 points is a big deal. You don't want next year to go smoother because you have fewer shooters!