Slide lightening and light recoil springs

[charles]

Would lightening the slide and using a reduced power recoil spring reduce recoil and low faster splits in a five inch .45.  Would this be benificilal for an idpa gun if the lightening was done internally?  Please tell me what you know about slide lightening.  Thanks

[Kevin Kline]

charles,

I'm not an expert on this but this is an experience I had dealing with a 45 and a 40 gun. Both are Limited guns, (no comps or dots). I shoot my STI Edge .40 (5 inch gun) with a 11lb recoil spring in it and no lightened slide. It is a Unique full profile slide. I have around 11,500 rounds through it of major IPSC power factor loads. I swap out shok buffs only 1-2 twice a year. There is no excessive damage to the gun or parts and the buffs are not being beaten up or excessively damaged or worn.

However, I have a Para P13.45 (Commander size slide and frame) in 45 and had a 14lb recoil spring with 1 shok buff in it. I ran 130 rounds of factory Winchester 230gr white box ammo in it. Afterward, I broke the gun down and looked at the shok buff and was amazed at the amount of damage to it. The buff was so badly destroyed, it was SHREDDED and almost in two separate pieces. I couldn't have done that much damage to the shok buff by myself if I had my Cold Steel knives with me. Obviously, the recoil was too much and beating the shok buff to death. Now that is part of the shok buffs job is to take the beating instead of the gun and frame taking it. But this was way too much. It should last at least 1000 rounds before changing the buff.

To me, this said the 45 has more recoil or at least different recoil than the 40, which I already knew, but didn't think it was that different.

Lightening the slide and/or using a lighter recoil spring should speed up the slide velocity. If you're using a 45, just watch the recoil spring weight you put in and watch for signs of excessive recoil and damage to your gun.

Maybe Brian can help.

[benos]

Charles,

Knowing what I know after messing around endlessly with everything imaginable - I wouldn't mess with it, especially with a .45. I'd just shoot the thing - a lot.

be

[Kyle Norris]

Kevin, my Para did the same thing, only it was a P16. I think the shock-buff problems have more to do with the sharp edges of the standard recoil spring plug's sharp edges vs A reverse plug's large contact area with the shock buff. Baffled me at first why my STI didn't shred the buff at 11#s but the Para did. Till I looked at the edge of the plug.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Bingo.  Sharp edges shred buffers.  I'm with Brian, shoot the thing with the slide as-is until you know for sure someone with a light slide is always beating you.  Then think about it after you try a light-slide gun.

[BamBam]

If you ever wondered what REALLY happens during recoil check out this web site showing gun actions in slow motion with high speed film:  

http://www.sscmagnum.de/hochgeschwindigkeitsvideos.htm  

Two things come to mind watching some of these (there are about 20 videos).  First, I need a DSL line.  HA!  No seriously.... First there is some muzzle flip resulting from the muzzle blast, recoil, and associated energy... then you see a more pronounced muzzle lift effect resulting from the slide hitting its stopping point.  A lighter slide and carefully selected spring would then be significant to reduce what appers to be the largest contributer to muzzle flip.  The second interesting visual to note is the amount of twist the guns deliver when ejecting spent cases.  Take a look!  Also, the open class gun appears to have NO flip from recoil until the point when the slide hits its end stop and then there is a sudden and dramatic lift.  

[ErikW]

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A lighter slide and carefully selected spring would then be significant to reduce what appers to be the largest contributer to muzzle flip.

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BamBam, sometimes a theory is disproven in practice.... Of two near-identical long/heavy/bull Limited guns, I had one's slide lightened. It now flips more than it did before, more than the heavy slide gun.

Charles, I think you'll be better off by experimenting with bullets and powders than with slides and springs in your efforts to reduce recoil. (And better off still by experimenting with grip and index...) You don't really need fast splits for IDPA anyway. If you have unusually slow splits right now, it's because of shooting technique, not because of equipment.

[Kevin Kline]

Kyle

Thanks for the info. That explains why it chewed and shredded my buff so quickly. It didn't seem right, but I thought it was from the difference in the 45 to 40.

Also Patrick, thank you too for the info, helps figure quite a bit out.

Bam Bam,

That is interesting about the video piece. I'll have to try and watch it. I agree with Erik though that what seems logical and in theory doesn't always work in practice. I understand what you are saying and you are partially right. I used to use a Sprinco guide rod in my Limited gun (STI Edge 40, long wide dust cover) with a 11lb spring. I switched to a Comminoli frame saver tungsten rod. I got less muzzle flip and recoil (back in my hand) with the Sprinco guide rod but it didn't seem to recoil exactly the same way every time. That made a difference to me because with the Comminoli guide rod, the recoil is almost always consistent and the same everytime. I can predict that it makes my shooting more consistent. I don't care how much the gun recoils or how much muzzle flip there is, as long as it is consistent and is the same everytime, I can work with that.

I don't know if your familiar with the Sprinco guide rods or not, but they have a smaller (very heavy) spring in the guide rod itself. You put the recoil spring on the guide rod like normal and as the gun recoils, right before the slide reaches its stopping point, the second spring in the guide rod is enacted and begins to slow down the slide before it slams into its stopping point, thus cutting down the rocking of the gun and felt recoil you are referring to.

However, it you have a heavier recoil spring in the gun to slow down the slide from slamming to its stopping point, it also slams the slide forward and back into battery with more force than the lighter recoil spring giving you the visual and perception of more muzzle flip. You have to find a compromise between the spring weight of the slide recoiling back and slamming into the

frame compared to it slamming back forward into battery and still giving a bouncing effect.

[Singlestack]

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Quote: from Kevin on 12:40 am on Sep. 1, 2001

However, it you have a heavier recoil spring in the gun to slow down the slide from slamming to its stopping point, it also slams the slide forward and back into battery with more force than the lighter recoil spring giving you the visual and perception of more muzzle flip. You have to find a compromise between the spring weight of the slide recoiling back and slamming into the

frame compared to it slamming back forward into battery and still giving a bouncing effect.

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Interesting observation Kevin. I took 2 45's to the range about 2 weeks ago and I had a Sprinco in one with a 16lb recoil spring and no shock buff. I had a 15lb recoil spring with a Comminoli and one shock buff in the other. It was my opinion on that day that the Sprinco  had more flip and I just did not like the way it felt (my normal setup is the 15lb spring and the Comminoli) but now I might have to try it again with the same spring because I thought it was the Sprinco causing the extra flip.

By the way, the 45 I had the Sprinco in was a Kimber that I have never been able to run a shock in for 2000 rds. At 500 they are usually pretty toasty so thats why I was trying the Sprinco. I can run a shock buff in my Springfield with the Comminoli and a 15lb spring until they dissolve from Hoppes #9.

[Les Snyder]

I like a 20# recoil spring (which takes a set to about 18#) and like to lug cut the barrel as far forward as possible to increase the dwell time for the barrel unlocking.  The heavier spring will feed most anything into the chamber...In the early days of my .45 career a friend suggested a way to determine the correct spring rate and I've followed it pretty closely over the years.. load a single round via magazine, shoot it with your weak hand, limp wristed... the empty should exit the port by at least 8inches, and lock the slide open (in the early days that was something to do)...this should guarantee rule (1) is met.   I've tried most of the gimmicks in the last 20 years and the heavy guide rods and long slide 45's increase my perception of muzzle flip( I'm a school teacher and don't have the forearm strength some of you have)..I would suggest a spring calibration kit with a variety of springs, and as suggested really work on a bullet/powder combination... I'm currently shooting a 200 round nose flat point (45 long Colt) bullet with 5.5 Clays that has a very small grease groove and helps reduce smoke... I shot polymer coated 230lrn prior to the reduction of power factor... regards

[Les Snyder]

Sorry... didn't proof read what I had typed, the Clays load should have read 4.4 grains.... regards

[Kevin Kline]

Single stack

I know with my 40 STI Edge and the Sprinco compared to the Comminoli tungsten frame saver with two buffs, the Sprinco was definitely softer and had less recoil coming back into my hand. It also had much less visible muzzle flip than the standard guide rod and spring.

I used the same weight spring each time I tested it, an 11lb. The only reason I didn't keep it and like it is that it seemed to recoil differently each time. The slide pretty much ended up in about the same place each time it was finished recoiling, but it took different routes to get there. It is not as predictable as the Comminoli or standard rod. I want the predictability, not the unknown.

The Sprinco can make it more flippy if you have a heavier spring in it. Remember, that internal spring is very strong, (like a 24-25lb) so it will send the slide forward with a lot of force if you also have a heavy recoil spring. With a lighter recoil spring, it doesn't send it back into battery with that much force.

[benos]

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