BigDave Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Well, doing some reading here on ole be.com regarding options for short range iron sights used in conjuction with a scope for Tactical class is not very positive. If you don't have the right handguard, mouting rails can be a PITA. One of the available sights requires, for many, the use of additional risers or 10/22 specific mounts to bring the sight up to a useable height. Once it is there though, some others complain that the sight radius is too short. Another manufacturer has another option. Again, a forearm mounted sight rail. But, this time with a longer sight radius and it is already at the "right" height. But, this one appears to be permanently installed to the forearm tube. I'm not certain if that is true or not, I haven't seen one. If it is (I don't see a rail that it is mounted to mfg's photos), that is room on the tube that I need for my big hands. Then, I started thinking. (quit laughing) I love my new (to me) TA11 ACOG. Great glass. Some people can shoot it really fast up close - I can't (yet). I need an option. Irons seem to be an option. Sight radius is a good thing. One well known 3-gun competitor has told me that he feels that up close, nothing is as fast as iron sights. Obviously others agree (see above). Why not have a real A2 sight in the back and a real front sight post up front, but just off to the side? Well, the fine folks at Yankee Hill Machine might have, albeit unintentionally, have the tools for a possible solution. I only say possible b/c I rec'd the parts tonight and just mounted them up. I haven't shot them yet. But, doing some transitions from the ACOG to the irons seemed really smooth. Unless there is an adjustment issue, I can't see it not being an option. The ideal solution? That's not for me to say for you. I'll let you know what I think of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkbrd Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Put a fiber optic front post in this, and I think your on to a great new combination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Cool. What about the gas block? Are you committed to using a YHM gas block in order to get the front/rear sight height relationship correct? I'm not sure there is a standard for the picatinny height on gas blocks....or is there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbs007 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 That's another slanted riser attached to a JP gas block. Very interesting, but it looks a little too high. But then, why would Yankee Hill design something like that. Can't wait for the result Big D, that will be a very cool setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted September 16, 2006 Author Share Posted September 16, 2006 The 3 rail version is what I'm using. As it states on YHM's website, it is for lights and scopes - I don't think this use was a consideration. That rear sight is their solid A2. It is really skinny, which makes it look a bit taller than normal. My fear after ordering the parts was sight height. But, I thought of two things. First - this is a short range setup. If I don't have a great cheek weld, it really isn't much of an issue. Second - it is just putting anything I had on those rails in the normal position in a 45 deg position. If it worked straight up, it should be okay at an angle too. Rolling from the ACOG to this irons seemed to me to be quite natural (as natural as it can be anyways). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Hmm .. I wonder if this would work with mounting the frontsight on the tube, as my gas block is under my tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactustactical Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 The Dovetail Angle Mount setup does not have to be mounted only on a gas block. Most who buy the dovetail angle mount also buy these: . The Forearm rails come in 5 different lengths, the 3 or 4 inch works best for this particular application. Mount the rail on your forearm near the front end between the 12 and 3 o'clock position, attach the angle mount to the rail and then mount the front sight setup of your choice. You then do the same thing with the rear sight ( mount on the angle mount and rail) at a distance that works for your brain. If I read Dave's setup correctly, he has a 3 rail foreend and did not need the add-on rail, the end result is the same. There are several guys here in town that went this route early this year and are real happy with it. They were not satisfied with the short sight radius of the products currently on the market and came up with this setup after looking over the parts available from the different manufacturers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbs007 Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 There are several guys here in town that went this route early this year and are real happy with it. They were not satisfied with the short sight radius of the products currently on the market and came up with this setup after looking over the parts available from the different manufacturers. Is it exactly as BigDave's setup? Hope they can chime in for more info. I would like to go with the same config. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRUBL Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 looks like a spendy set up for a short range sight intended to be used for less than 50yds. I did a lot of shooting with the JP sight and even though some feel it is too low to the bore, the concept was for a quick aquisition sight for short range targets. I currently have one on my He-Man rifle, and am then able to use precision iron sights for longer targets. That being said.......for targets out to 50yds.....what precision is needed before you need to go to your primary sights? Keep in mind, the name of the game here is speed for short range targets while keeping an acceptable accuracy. I have done some testing shooting larger targets out at 100yds and found that offhand using the short range site, I was able to hit a 10 inch target very consistantly......something I would not recommend using in competion (using a short range sight for 100yd targets). but at targets out to 50yds I was able to keep all shots in the "A" zone. at shorter distances and at wide open targets I was able to use the sight as more of a reference point and get the speed up between targets and shot to shot. It just seems to me that for optics shooters.......why would you want to put a peep on as your secondary sight for short range targets as opposed to a notch and post? i say this only because when I am shooting my iron sights (primary peep sight) I went to a notch and post to speed up target aquisition for my secondary sights. As for sight radius.......I am not sure if that is THAT much of a factor when dealing with what we are talking about here. YES.....longer sight radius does mean more accuracy, however, again....we are talking targets out to 50yards max for this sight system and you are shooting a much more stabile weapons system than a pistol. I guess if you are looking for longer sight radius, thats cool.......and we could argue that one all day. I think though that the choice of a rear sight can and will affect the speed at which you aquire targets. I opted for the JP as it is very light weight, and a little low profile......I also use an ace butt stock with out the foam so I can get my cheek down that extra 1/8" inch lower. There many ways to skin a cat, thats for sure......some one came out with a similar design only longer, higher and a little more weight. This yankee hill concept seems very doable over all.........but SPENDY!!! And for what you are shooting at......you may want to look at the costs involved and just what IS acceptable accuracy/speed at short range targets before you would use your primary sighting system. Just my $.02 worth........not to argue.......just something to think about.....your mileage may vary and probably will. Whats great is that there are lots of options out there to fit many needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactustactical Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 There are several guys here in town that went this route early this year and are real happy with it. They were not satisfied with the short sight radius of the products currently on the market and came up with this setup after looking over the parts available from the different manufacturers. Is it exactly as BigDave's setup? Hope they can chime in for more info. I would like to go with the same config. Daves setup, from looking at the images, used the available rail portion of the receiver and the rail on top of the gas block. Dave, correct me if I am reading your images incorrectly. The locals mounted the setup on the front and back of a standard free floating forearm using the YHM short forearm rails. The sight radius is shorter, but still close to a foot. Both seem to be viable "homemade" options to the commercial products available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted September 19, 2006 Author Share Posted September 19, 2006 The rear offset rail is mounted at the very rear of the flatop rail on the upper. The front offset is mounted to the JP gas block. Think of a flat top AR with detachable front and rear, just offset those positions to the right 45 deg. That's the theme I was running with. Spendy? I dunno. 2 offset rails @ $25/ea, Solid rear @ $53, front @ $45 = $148 total JP rail is $100, rail for handguard $20 - $40, another $25 for risers = $120-$165 total Flatland Forge sight is $150 total I'd say the YHM is in the ballpark in terms of cost. As far as a peep for a rear. Just in transitioning from the scope the irons, the big hole on the A2 seems to work well. I saw on AR15.com a company who is making a A2 flip sight that has a notched blade and a peep. I thought that would be interesting to try, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRUBL Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Looking at the pics you have Dave......is the front sight centered over the bore??? it appears that it is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted September 19, 2006 Author Share Posted September 19, 2006 It appears that it is not. I'm curious to see what effect that will have now that you mention it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I'm curious to see what effect that will have now that you mention it. Unless the rear is offset from the bore exactly the same, it will have a HUUUGE difference at anything but CQ distances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted September 19, 2006 Author Share Posted September 19, 2006 I'm curious to see what effect that will have now that you mention it. Unless the rear is offset from the bore exactly the same, it will have a HUUUGE difference at anything but CQ distances. I did say this was an experiment, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRUBL Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 You are correct......the front and rear will need to be the offset the same or you will have problems out at varing distances.......with any AR sight, you already have to compensate for height on targets at 10yards vs. 40yards.......would be a pain to throw in windage at those distances as well. It is a good concept........maybe someone needs to make offsets to correct the alingment issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted September 20, 2006 Author Share Posted September 20, 2006 Well, in theory, if the mounts are identical, and they are fastened to the same point as the irons would be normally, they should be offset the same ammount? I think the proof will be in zeroing and then looking at bullet impact at the same POA at varrying distances. Maybe inside of 50 yds, if there a difference, won't be noticible. I'll let you know by the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Put the AR upper in a rifle rest and remove the bolt carrier. Then look through the barrel and line up 2.5" low on a dot at 25 feet. Then look at the sights and if they are anywhere near being on, or a 6 o:clock hold on the dot, you are within the range the sights will adjust for. If you are off in space somewhere, oh well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRUBL Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 True dave....BUT.....the rail is lower on the sight block than the reciever......and at the 45 degree offset, not only with the front sight be lower, it will be off in windage as well. Hopefully you will have enough adjustment to compensate for that.....if not.....I would go off the tube instead of the front sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted September 21, 2006 Author Share Posted September 21, 2006 Well, I shot it today... It's not match ready...yet. There is a problem with the front sight offset. I'm lacking about 3 inches of windage to get a 25 yd zero. Going off of the tube is an option, for sure, but I'd like to run the idea of going off of the JP gas block into the ground first. It isn't that going off of the tube is a bad idea - it's a good one. But, for me, I need all of the real estate I can get at the end of my tube (I'm 6'6" - can you say wingspan?). I was at the range with Rhino today and, just looking down the rifle he thought it was a good idea and worth persuing. I agree. I'll keep ya'll posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooterj Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 Dave, I'll be trying almost the same setup as you with one exception. My front sight will be at the end of my barrel and can be rotated to adjust for windage. Should be getting my rear sight mount in a few days. You can see the front sight that I'll be using at http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/bmas/yhm-9360k.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactustactical Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 This is also an alternative that might work for someone. I use this YHM setup on one of my iron sight rifles at the far end of the barrel by the muzzle brake. I have it in the 12 o'clock position to give a longer sight radius. No reason why it would not work for a side sight system once it was aligned with whatever rear sight was mounted. A lot of choices are available for those who have the time to experiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted September 21, 2006 Author Share Posted September 21, 2006 Ideally the sights should be in line with the bore, regardless of their degree of offset. I also tossed around both of your ideas for this very reason and haven't ruled them out, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tewlman Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 Ideally the sights should be in line with the bore, regardless of their degree of offset. I also tossed around both of your ideas for this very reason and haven't ruled them out, either. I like where you are going with this Dave. It fills a void between close up and out past 50yrds which is the weak spot for occluded shooting. I would entertain a similar setup myself but would opt for flipup sights so they wouldnt be in the way when i was shooting a stage that i didnt need them on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbs007 Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 I would entertain a similar setup myself but would opt for flipup sights so they wouldnt be in the way when i was shooting a stage that i didnt need them on. Another excellent idea! Keep 'em comin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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