Is Cheating Common At The Lower Club Level?

[JFD]

After shooting more matches, it will be easier to recognize that gaming isn't cheating. If he's willing, ask him about his reasoning for shooting the stage that way. Most good shooters will explain their thinking and it can really help you with your own shooting.

I'm hoping the "reshoot" he gave himself was nothing more than a non-scoring run for him to see what he should have done. If the MD allows it, then I guess it's OK.

I learned SO MUCH as a newbie stage designer about the sport and the rules. I had a Master class shooter with Super GM knowledge walk each of my stages and clue me in to how shooters in each division would likely shoot the stage and why. Between that, asking questions at matches, and just being close by as top local shooters plan their "attacks" has helped me greatly.

Of course some shooters are asshats, I think 99% are more than willing to help. This forum is a perfect example of top shooters who could easily focus totally on their own game, but they go out of their way to help others.

[johnhurd]

Stoopid me I figgered if the swinger was still going when you were cleared it was continual

ANd I just found a membership card from 82

Edited September 13, 2006 by johnhurd

[MVZ]

I was the shooter being talked about. The facts are that the swinger at rest was completely behind some barrels and not visable. This fact was announced durring the walk through.

As far as me granting myself a reshoot how does one do that??

I have allways believed on being scored on what I've shot and earned. I have called foot faults and no-shoot targets on myself that the RO missed.

If you want to call me a cheater please do it to my face not on this forum. I promise to respond.

MVZ

[Crusher]

To answer your original question, No cheating is not common at the local (level 1) or any other level match for that matter.

Generally newer shooters have much less knowledge of the rules and scoring calculations than the more experienced competitors, and as a result new shooter often jump to conclusions based on a predetermined perception that the newer shooters “thinks” violates some “rule” that can cause them to question the game, it’s rules and experience they (newer shooters) believed they were entering.

The game itself is not complex with regard to existing rules, what does factor into many stages is “how” to solve the shooting challenges presented to obtain the maximum hit factor (the most points per second) for their current ability/skill level, and this is what many do not take into account when planning how they will attack a stage simply because of a lack of experience. This is not a bad thing as we ALL were noobs once and there are many at all levels of USPSA/IPSC matches that are more than willing to pass on their experience and knowledge to the newer competitors.

[kevin c]

I think that what might be learned from this is that what we think we see may not actually be what is happening. We have someone new to the sport puzzling over actions that seem inappropriate, but that may actually be representative of a very high level of analysis and understanding of the game we play.

That being said, I think another thing that could be said is that this stage, and most of the others mentioned by later posters, all could have been designed better. If the CRO's really want competitors to shoot the COF in line with their original intent (and that usually includes shooting all the targets), then they should build the course so that that is in the shooters' best interest, scorewise, to do so.

Another comment and then I'll clam up. The orginal poster did nothing to specifically identify the shooter he was talking about. He posted here asking for clarification, and got it. Granted his wording was not tactful, but I didn't see anything that pointed towards any identifiable shooter. The forum doesn't need to have this escalate on line. Perhaps, as has been suggested, the two parties involved can deal with this off line or by PM.

Kevin C.

[Jaxshooter]

I would have to agree that our game involves little if any cheating that I have seen. Having been in skeet and sporting clays for many many years I cannot say the same for them.

I have also shot IDPA on occassion and have witnessed cheating regarding shooting positions in violation of the rules and stretching safety rules by some SOs for name shooters and friends. Again I think our sport is not like the others probably due to the commitment and practice that is reqired to excel in USPSA shooting and the integrity of the individuals involved.

[Odie]

I'm still fairly new at this myself, but I have seen some cheats at local club matches. You know what? It doesn't matter. Some of the earlier posts were wrought with some good advice. First off, figure out if a person is gaming or cheating. Gaming? Learn from them. Cheating? Ignore them. I know of one shooter at another club that I have watched personally argue hits with his "buddy" and get them, and also rob other shooters of points when scoring. Numerous times. And he gets his head handed to him at any MAJOR match he shoots. So it all comes out "in the wash". Club matches are for learning, and experimentation. Take them for what they are, and use them to your benefit.

[michiglock]

I've been shooting in Southeast Michigan all season, people always seem pretty honest at matches. All you cheat is yourself any way.

[Topmaul]

The idea of cheating never crosses my mind, if I screw up which I do now and then I just smile as I'm cussing myself and go on.

I have seen people do so things that I felt was a little underhanded, like sigh up or Iron and shoot a stage or two with irons then decide that Irons are not cutting it and end up putting on an optic, I saw one guy with an SKS, which he could not master the clip reload top reload as I recall at that match the MD said and I quote "all mags pistol, rifle, shotgun hold 10 rounds" so a good loader could have been competitive with an SKS, so he switched to a friends AR. Things like that happen is it cheating or does it show poor preperation.

I came in second over all in my last match, with less than two seconds 1.43 or something. Anyway there was a stage where you had to shoot through a maze that there was no backing up or breaking the 180 I saw the winner take a step back no one called him on it so he won the match, at least in his mind. No big deal, I did not cheat, and to be honest I doubt he even realized he stepped back. There were times I did things wrong and did not get called on it so, I let it go.

Sportsmanship is critical to this sport!

Edited September 14, 2006 by Topmaul

[GunBomB]

No, I was wrong, the situations look different to untrained eyes. I will learn what to look for and when. I neither accused nor identified anyone, my thread was an attempt to gain insight and information. I am amazed that so many people posted, and that many more people read it. It lets me know that honesty is much more important than success in this sport. I apoligize to the shooter, and just to let you know, I have learned a lot from you and everyone else there.

Edited September 14, 2006 by GunBomB

[Vlad]

It lets me know that honesty is much more important than success in this sport.

I think it really can't be any other way. By its nature practical shooting is a social event. We don't use a common firing line which means one guy is shooting and everyone else is watching or talking among thermselves. The social aspects, the friendships, the bullshit sessions, those are as much a part of these games as the shooting itself. That being the case, a dishonest shooter (or for that matter one with other antisocial qualities) will quickly find himself or herself standing by themselves or picked on with the elan of angry 14 year old girls

You can cheat (sometimes) but people are going to call you on it. You can sandbag, but you are sure as hell going to be called on that. You can sit on your ass and not help tape and reset, but the rest of your squad is sure going to notice. These kind of things take care of themselves after a while, people either shape up or go away.