kellyn Posted June 28, 2001 Share Posted June 28, 2001 There are rumblings to allow USPSA limited class 3-Gun shooters to use an optical sight on the rifle but not the pistol or shotgun somewhat akin to SOF's scoped class. What do you guys think? I am somewhat torn on this topic. Philosophically, I am against such a change as I believe limited should be "limited." There should be a place for irons: a limited 3-gunner should have to master iron sights on the rifle. If you can't, shoot open. On the other hand, I have seen many shooters struggle w/ irons on shots with any degree of difficulty and then go on to blame either the iron sights or their eyes (a reasonable complaint for many older shooter like my dad). Most often, it seems that they simply have little understanding of the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship but I have heard a lot of shooters state that they would be more likely to compete in 3-Gun if they could shoot limited but w/ a scoped rifle. Increased participation in 3 gunning would definitely be a good thing. Should USPSA allow optical sights in limited rifle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted June 28, 2001 Share Posted June 28, 2001 I tend to be hard-core on this one. If you want to use optics on a Limited rifle, spend the money for an AUG, then ask the MD for a special dispensation. If eyesight is the issue, there are several options, as the NRA High Power shooters have had to deal with the problem for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 28, 2001 Share Posted June 28, 2001 I am just getting into shooting 3-gun. My first thought is to stick to the iron sights for Limited. But, I'm really not in any position to have a hard opinion. Can you throw us newbies some more info? What about magnified vs. non-magnified? ...there is a pistol shooter at our club. He has a hand that is about half crippled, his eyes aren't too good...he still manages to whip just about everone's butt in Limited. yeah, iron sights. Let the shooter take care of the Practical problems. (usPsa) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted June 28, 2001 Share Posted June 28, 2001 Look at all the pistol divisions we have, manly guns, foo-foo guns, manly guns with neutered magazines, wheel guns, and vanilla guns. I think there is room for a third division in 3-gun matches. The problem is this would dilute the divisions even further, though it would be OK at the big matches. A Limited with Optics Rifle division would really siphon shooters from both Limited and Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted June 28, 2001 Share Posted June 28, 2001 Leave it as is. If it aint broke why screw with it. We have more divisions now than ever. It's sad when someone wins a division with 2 or 3 people in it. If you want optics shoot open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted June 28, 2001 Share Posted June 28, 2001 Over here in little old New Zealand, its almost impossible to find anyone in the same division to compete against. No more please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve horsman Posted July 2, 2001 Share Posted July 2, 2001 Good post Kelly, I agree with everyone else on the post's. I see your point about getting more shooters if a scoped limited division was created, but I think alot of shooters get involved with limited usually out of financial reasons at first and if they work hard and practice with what they have and spend their hard earned dollars for ammo and reloading gear they will see results. (long sentance, huh). You were a good shooter with iron sights before you started shooting open. You GREAT shooters keep shooting in OPEN class. I personally would like to see the SOF and MM3gun go with just iron or open class, that is if I can finish the MM3gun. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted July 2, 2001 Author Share Posted July 2, 2001 Then, it's settled. IRON SIGHTS ROCK!! Steve, FYI, I am going to back to limited - it's scary in open! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve horsman Posted July 2, 2001 Share Posted July 2, 2001 Gee Thanks..........I see, now that you are the Open Rifle champion, you want to come back and kick all us lowly limited shooters around some. Just kidding, I welcome the challenge, you will just be another one of the better shooters than me. I did like your picture in Front Sight, did you notice the ad for Browning shotguns in the same issue? Kind of funny when you consider who won the limited shotgun, huh? Later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted July 2, 2001 Share Posted July 2, 2001 my .02, I think limited should be irons only. If optics are allowed, then you should allow all optics or have you have the ridiculous situation we have now where you can only use 'selected' optics. If you allow all optics in limited, then you may as well be shooting open class. One more class, revolving around optics on one of three guns, is not the answer. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted July 2, 2001 Share Posted July 2, 2001 If they keep iron sights only on Limited, they shouldn't allow partial (black hardcovered) targets out past 100 yards. (Ideally, for me, not past 50!) If they want to make the targets small, they should use steel plate flashers. At least we can call our shots on those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonedaddy Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 Kelly, I think we would be wise to stay all irons for limited. We are all at some disadvantage. We have awards for lady and senior, which is nice. But, we don't need awards for "highest score with eyesight worse than 2040" or "high score, over 40, bad knees". (This is a personal sacrifice, I could at least "place" in these divisions") Limited should mean something. It was the appearance of scopes on comped pistols that started the whole limitedunlimited thang several years ago. If we pound our chests and call it IRON MAN DIVISION, everyone will want in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 IRON MAN DIVISION??? Where do I sign up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 At Second Chance, there was a match called "Light Rifle Pop and Flop", falling steel pins. For a couple of years, i awarded plaques or certificates called "Iron Man Awards" for the best times posted with iron sights. Maybe a travelling trophy at the USPSA 3-Gun Nationals, The Iron Man, for the winner of Limited 3-Gun? Is Mike Voigt reading? I'll be willing to come up with a suitable trophy if he'll award it each year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonedaddy Posted July 7, 2001 Share Posted July 7, 2001 Patrick, great idea. You must be the original designator of IRON MAN! But, in our haste, let us not neglect a trophy for IRON MAIDEN! I'll leave the design of the award up to the Canucks, they have such a keen sense of humor. (P.S. any further discussion of Iron Maiden awards should probably be held in the humor pages.) (Edited by bonedaddy at 5:29 pm on July 6, 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Snyder Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 I'm new to the forum, but my $.02...I've been an IPSC limited shooter since before the introduction of the class, and typically shoot Lim-10. 3gun is making a comeback in Fla, while IPSC/USPSA attendance is somewhat declining in the Tampa Bay area, there appears to be an increase in IDPA, and especially Cowboy Action Shooting(which is a 3gun format). I think that a "tactical" class with SOF or NC Tactical rules would be a logical addition...optics and comps on rifles, porting on shotgun, limited pistol, with duty type gear. We went thru the same arguments "diluting the prize table" etc when Limited was introduced, but if you expect the sport to grow the "purists" on both sides will need to compromise. Most local matches are for bragging rights anyway, and an additional class on the computer scoring system makes their breakout easy. Easy rule interpretation: "If I were a Delta operator, what would I have on my rifle?" regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 "If I were a Delta operator" (and I've met a few) I'd have grenades, a radio link to air support, and at least one belt-fed on the team. (But wouldn't it make one hell of a fun stage to shoot?) Sweeney's first Axis of competition states: "Clarity and fairness are antagonistic." The rules can be clear, or they can be fair. Clear is: no optics. Fair is seven paragraphs describing what bolt-on optics are equivalent to the scope on a Steyr AUG. (And an eighth coming soon because someone protested the current rules.) I'd be willing to entertain the idea of optics in Limited when the Army or better yet, the Marine Corps, adopts a rifle that has issue optics. The red-dots the Army is testing don't count, as the Army tests a lot of things. I do agree we should be looking to gain and keep competitors, but if we allow scopes in Limited, just how does it differ from Open? (Edited by Patrick Sweeney at 6:22 am on July 13, 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Snyder Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 Patrick... we shot our first (for Fla) single stack classic last year and it generated a lot of interest, and brought out a bunch of the "old timers". Several of us have been kicking around an idea for a "Wild Bunch" type of 3gun match using IPSC and Cowboy equipment without the clothing...pump action shotgun (not necessarily a Win97), lever rifle in pistol caliber, and Lim10 pistol(not necessarily a 1911). Have you ever tried anything similar.. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 How do you shoot a "first classic"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Snyder Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 Kyle... I think it had to do with the age of a lot of us old farts that showed up. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 Les, Don't mind me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DblTap Posted August 14, 2001 Share Posted August 14, 2001 As my first post here I'd like to say "hi" to everyone. I favor allowing optics on limited rifles. There are several reasons why: 1/ I think a rule change here would get us some new 3 gun shooters 2/ optics on the rifle with the pistol and SG limited seems to be what most shooters I know seem to want 3/ this would make limited would be more "real world"(and fun). As for specifics, I'd like to see non-magnifying optics only. In regard to financial expense, most guys that can afford 3 gun equipment can also afford a $60 Tasco dot. (Edited by DblTap at 7:23 am on Aug. 14, 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted August 15, 2001 Author Share Posted August 15, 2001 Welcome Double tap. I agree that allowing scopes would increase participation in 3 gun matches. How much, I am not sure. That is why I brought the topic up. The purists, myself included, feel that there are other concerns beyond shooter participation. Shooter participation is VERY important but it should not be the end all be all of rule making. Philosophically, I feel that there should be a place for iron sighted rifles in practical shooting. They are certainly more difficult to master than scoped rifles but isn't that the point of limited? I feel that most (not all) of the shooters who complain about iron-sighted rifles do so because they are unwilling to take the time to actually learn how to shoot them. Some shooters do have definite limitations shooting iron-sighted rifles due to their eyes etc. but a handicapped minority should not control the rule-making for eveybody else. Shooting a scope is easier and more fun but (to me) not as satisfying. Now if USPSA/IPSC or any other 3-gun shooting body wants to make scopes legal for limited, I will dutifully order a Leupold 1.5-5X and mount it in my AR but I don't have to like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 Here, here. Did I mention when I won that final "Mad Minute" match I did it with an iron-sighted 16" AR? Irons will work, if you'll work them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 And, I think I remember our Rifle Master winning the OVERALL rifle portion of the Mystery mountain 3-gun a couple years ago... with irons. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now