Fail To Eject Live Round?

[steel1212]

I shot a IDPA match today and at the end of the string I was given the command to empty, show clear. Well I dropped the mag and pulled the slide back and nothing popped out, but it didn't register in my melon, dropped the slide and hammer down BANG into the burm. Yes it was both mine and the SO fault for not makeing 100% sure there was no round chambered and I fealt like an idiot the rest of the day.

Anyway, I checked the gun over to make sure there where no malfs and shot the next stage and ran 100%. Any ideas as to why it didn't eject the live round?

9mm 1911, 4.4 tg, 121 haps, 1.150 oal, cci 500 primers, winchester brass (this was the 2nd fire).

[LPatterson]

1st thought would be that you didn't pull the slide back far enough.

2nd thought is why was it not a DQ.

[steel1212]

I could have not pulled the slide back far enouch but I would think that it would have been back far enough to caused it to malf in some way, there wasn't a mag in the gun or anything so something should have happened.

Why would it have been a DQ? Its the SO job to check clear as well as mine, and one of the reason's for hammer down to make sure its clear. The gun was pointed at the burm, the hammer was dropped, and the round that was still in there was discharged into the burm. To me all that was done in a safe manner, the reason for the hammer down procedure. Granted, there is no excuse for either one of us not to check and make sure there was no round in the chamber.

Edited August 20, 2006 by steel1212

[LPatterson]

Why would it have been a DQ? Its the SO job to check clear as well as mine, and one of the reason's for hammer down to make sure its clear. The gun was pointed at the burm, the hammer was dropped, and the round that was still in there was discharged into the burm. To me all that was done in a safe manner, the reason for the hammer down procedure. Granted, there is no excuse for either one of us not to check and make sure there was no round in the chamber.

My bad, I shoot IPSC/USPSA & the command is "if clear, hammer down holster" the shooter is responsible to ensure the gun is clear not the RO.

[shooterbenedetto]

First thing come to mind is your extractor is not working 100%

had similar problem...change an extractor to aftec and the end of that.

also buy a tuned brazo ejector..(see 1911.com)

everytime i buy a gun, i always put both of these and never have a problem.

if i dont, either the firearm is new, something goes wrong.

also you should always stop and check the round or case for this matter.

could be that the rim was dull and extractor didnt bite in it? you always want to stop and freez when something like this happens because you only get to see this malfunction once or twice?

[George]

I really don't know the rules in IDPA in detail so I can't comment on that, but if you were shooting a USPSA safety rules match, that is a "righteous DQ" and you, not the RO would have earned it.

Under USPSA rules it is the competitor who is responsible for his actions, the RO is there to insure the safety rules are followed by the shooter during the course of fire and to instruct/observe the competitor during the make ready and unload processes.

If the competitor does anything unsafe, it is on them. I had to DQ a shooter once when he did the clearout drill faster than I was calling the steps and Bang sent one into the berm. I did not feel bad for him at all as he was acting too slick to bother listening to, or waiting for the RO commands so I never got the chance to inspect the chamber and keep him out of the jam he got himself into.

No matter the rules, it really is YOUR job to ensure that this is checked this properly. What if the situation had involved clearing out a carry pistol at home!

An AD is an AD and the shooter needs to own it PERIOD

[steel1212]

Just so this is straight I'm not saying I'm not guilty I am 100% guilty, I'm also not saying it completly falls on the SO either. I know what I did was wrong and this should not have happened period!

I was ASKing why would I have been DQ. I'm still a new shooter so maybe this was grounds for a DQ in IDPA I don't know.

"Clearing out a carry pistol at home" Thats the sad part I always check clear everytime I pick a gun up, so why in the hell didn't I do it then?

Anyways, back to my original question, do I need to change the extractor? Its the only time this has happened.

[George]

If you didn't save the casing to check for a ripped rim, then you don't know why. If the extractor is not chipped/worn and there is good spring tension, then you are probably good to go and this was an anomaly.

It is however a great reason to stop and think though ;-)

I will have to look into the IDPA safety rules because I am surprised that ANY action shooting sport would allow ANY shooter triggered AD whatsoever without penalty.

[D__]

Man I thought it was overkill when i took my Black Badge course to have a pistol checked three times.

The instructor mentioned: "First you check the pistol empty, then the RO checks it empty, then you slide forward hammer down and God checks it empty."

Guess it could happen.

If you dont have any problems since, it was probably brass.

D

[George]

Well surprise my sorry azz, but it doesn't look like IDPA cares whether a competitor slams one into the berm during load and make ready, or unload and show clear!

There is a set of specs for a "Premature Shot" but that only seems to cover certain situations in a rather ambiguous manner.

Sheesh!! What's up with this lack of concern for what I would consider a minimum standard of conduct when competing with firearms? Someone please tell me I have read this wrong and that IDPA really doesn't allow AD's during LAMR and ULASC!!

[steel1212]

Well surprise my sorry azz, but it doesn't look like IDPA cares whether a competitor slams one into the berm during load and make ready, or unload and show clear!

There is a set of specs for a "Premature Shot" but that only seems to cover certain situations in a rather ambiguous manner.

Sheesh!! What's up with this lack of concern for what I would consider a minimum standard of conduct when competing with firearms? Someone please tell me I have read this wrong and that IDPA really doesn't allow AD's during LAMR and ULASC!!

I looked last night and couldn't find any but maybe they have it worded so a Kentucky good ol' boy can't figure it out lol.

[George]

I don't think a west coast city boy can figure it out either ;-)

[ipscbob]

Tactics and appearances first......looks like safety is a secondary consideration, huh?

[Radical Precision Designs]

A combination of "things" could have plotted to get you in trouble.

First a definite short stroke of the slide, and a "possible" short ejector and strong tension of the extractor.

But I would put my two cents on the possibility of "long" loaded ammo.

Next time you go to the range, fill a mag with some ammo, maybe five rounds. Safely, pointing the gun to the target area feed one round into the gun. Now 'smartly' rack the gun back fast enough to simulate normal functioning a couple of times. Observe where the live rounds went for later retrieval. Now feed a round into the chamber as you normally would. Drop the magazine and s l o w l y rack the slide back, observing to see if the bullet is hitting your ejection port. If it is, then your cartridges lenght should be shortened for them to clear the ejection port. Now go back and pick-up the live rounds that were ejected and check for marks in the nose area where they may have hit the ejection port. I would normally recommend that this testing be done with dummy rounds, but the dummy rounds may not have the dimensions of the ammo in question.

Sometimes this can also happen when using an "extra long" ejector as it would tend to push out the (live) round before enough room has been made in the cycling space to clear a live round while being ok for just an empty case. Usually in situations such as this the round (live) would just fall down the mag well rather than flipping out of the ejection port.

For this reason many custom built guns have that area "relieved" of material to allow more room for ejection. I hope this helps.

BTW- I was DQ'd once for doing the exact same thing. In my case I had just finished shooting four stages in great fashion, and this was the last act of my match. It costed me the entire previously just shot match. And ... yes, my ammo WAS too long and I short-stroked the slide.

[steel1212]

A combination of "things" could have plotted to get you in trouble.

First a definite short stroke of the slide, and a "possible" short ejector and strong tension of the extractor.

But I would put my two cents on the possibility of "long" loaded ammo.

Next time you go to the range, fill a mag with some ammo, maybe five rounds. Safely, pointing the gun to the target area feed one round into the gun. Now 'smartly' rack the gun back fast enough to simulate normal functioning a couple of times. Observe where the live rounds went for later retrieval. Now feed a round into the chamber as you normally would. Drop the magazine and s l o w l y rack the slide back, observing to see if the bullet is hitting your ejection port. If it is, then your cartridges lenght should be shortened for them to clear the ejection port. Now go back and pick-up the live rounds that were ejected and check for marks in the nose area where they may have hit the ejection port. I would normally recommend that this testing be done with dummy rounds, but the dummy rounds may not have the dimensions of the ammo in question.

Sometimes this can also happen when using an "extra long" ejector as it would tend to push out the (live) round before enough room has been made in the cycling space to clear a live round while being ok for just an empty case. Usually in situations such as this the round (live) would just fall down the mag well rather than flipping out of the ejection port.

For this reason many custom built guns have that area "relieved" of material to allow more room for ejection. I hope this helps.

BTW- I was DQ'd once for doing the exact same thing. In my case I had just finished shooting four stages in great fashion, and this was the last act of my match. It costed me the entire previously just shot match. And ... yes, my ammo WAS too long and I short-stroked the slide.

RPD, how would loading it long keep it from coming out of the chamber? I'm pretty sure I didn't short stroke it as I do remember thinking, "that was funny nothing came out". Now I load to 1.15 which is factory for WWB ball ammo right?

[Radical Precision Designs]

Steel1212-

The key here is "clearance space" for the complete round, whether factory or handload, ( rather than just the empty case) during its "arc of travel" after it contacts the ejector while still held by the extractor. Usual pattern of extraction/ejection will position the 'nose's point' at an angle that could hit the ejection port around "two o'clock". This can be further aggravated when using a too long ejector. Short stroking can also be aggravated by the use of a thick shock buff or a recoil spring that is too strong, which can be overcome during actual firing, but not is you are using a "weak wrist" rack back motion.

Check to see if your normal clearing of a live round in the chamber ( with the magazine out) causes it to fall down through the magwell, rather than being flipped out of the ejection port, especially when you do it at "slower speed".

It seems that your extractor ( maybe too much tension??) was still holding the round after you pulled the slide back and the ejector was not able to kick it out, maybe because the round had not completely cleared the breechface due to short-stroke or bullet/cartridge geometry with the ejection port. When you let go of the slide it "re-chambered" the round so that it could be fired.

This same complete round clearance factor/situation can be a real "bitch" when trying to clear a jam due to a bad primer, and you are trying to remove the "bad round" to feed in a fresh one, and you end up with a double jam because the "old" round refuses to come out cleanly. In any case, you should spend some time practicing your "unloading" skills with some "dummy" ammo similar to the one you use for competition. This should help alleviate your predicament.

Edited August 23, 2006 by Radical Precision Designs

[Dan Sierpina]

You simply said it was a 1911. What brand? Colt 9mm ejectors are extremely long. That length coupled with the ammo being slightly long would make the nose of the bullet hit the inside of the slide and fall back in, rather than eject.

[steel1212]

Springfield Armory 9mm 1911. As far as I know stock extractor.

[Dan Sierpina]

I'm not sure on Springfield ejectors. Colt's would extend almost halfway over the mag opening!