Erratic Brass Ejection W/ Titegroup

[AustinMike]

I just started reloading for my G22 (my Limited gun.) It has a KKM barrel, stock guide rod / spring, and most of Ralph's trigger kit in it. I started my load experiments with Titegroup and Power Pistol, to compare fast and slow powders. I'm using Precision coated bullets at 1.135, WSP, and Speer brass for initial load developlment. Both 4.3gr. of Titegroup and 5.5gr. of PP are around 168PF.

So, I like the feel of Titegroup a little better, as it exhibits slightly less recoil. The problem is that the brass ejection is extremely erratic. Some fly over my shoulder, some barely tumble out of the gun, some to the side. It's like watching a popcorn popper with the lid off! I've had one stove pipe jam out of about a hundred so far. Power Pistol seems to toss the brass a healthy distance consistently to about the 4 o'clock position from the gun.

Over the chrono, Titegroup is very consistent in spite of the crazy brass throwing. I had one 10 shot group with a standard deviation of 3.16! Power Pistol is typically in the mid to upper teens on SD.

I did try 4.4gr. of Titegroup, which shot at about 172PF, but no real improvement in ejection.

I plan to try some VV320 to see if another fast powder does the same thing. I assume that since Titegroup is fast, it creates less thrust over time and may not be pushing the slide hard enough. Do those of you who shoot the fast powders in the Glock use a lighter recoil spring? I'm thinking that would help, but I could be missing something else here. Any other thoughts?

[XRe]

One thing I didn't think of yesterday - maybe a lighter recoil spring?? That'll help the flip a little bit on both loads, too, and get the slide velocity up a small amount which should help kick the brass a little harder... Its a theory, anyway

[Sean Gaines]

its the nature of the glock, all of them flick brass everywhere, on top of my hat out to the side over my shoulder. Its not the powder. As far recoil spring try a 15lb ISMI spring, and see if you like the recoil even better.

[Flexmoney]

Mike,

I am having a hard time believing that TG has anything to do with it whatsoever. The only thing, in that regard, that I could guess is that the difference in recoil might have you gripping the gun differently?

[TKJ]

its the nature of the glock, all of them flick brass everywhere, on top of my hat out to the side over my shoulder.

Flick brass everywhere? I have G35(.40) and G22(in 357SIG opengun) and both flick brass nicely in small pile on right side so i dont know about your guns.

I use ISMI 15lbs spring and Vihtavuori N340 in 40, Wolff 12lbs spring and Vihtavuori 3N38 in 357SIG and had no ejection problems.

Oh one thing do you have new or old style extractor? If you have old one that might be the problem.

[Brazos SC Shooter]

Hey Mike,

Initially I would say it is the gun setup, but the fact that you are getting such a low SD on your groups would seem to refute that.

I use TG and have for the last 3 months. I seem to find my brass pile in the same spot and haven't experienced what you are.

I am using a completely stock HK FWIW.

Drew

[AustinMike]

I am having a hard time believing that TG has anything to do with it whatsoever. The only thing, in that regard, that I could guess is that the difference in recoil might have you gripping the gun differently?

Yeah, I am too, but there is certainly a noticable difference between loads. Don't think so...I had XRe shoot it for a second opinion and the brass was flying around too with the Titegroup loads. I first noticed it from a rested position while chronoing. There's really not that much "feel" between the two, mainly a little more muzzle flip with Power Pistol. Strange... I don't really care where the brass ends up at matches since I don't pick up much .40, but I definitely don't want any stove pipes!

Oh one thing do you have new or old style extractor?

Not sure, how can I tell? The gun is a factory rebuild I bought last year. It's shot fine with UMC factory ammo since I bought it. Didn't notice anything unusual until I started playing with Titegroup.

Seems like lots of folks are running a 15# spring. Maybe that's the ticket?

[Azone41]

My wifes G-34 throws brass all over the place to include the top of her head and on the RO as well as to the side sometimes.

[TKJ]

Not sure, how can I tell?

Old style

New style

The slides ejection port should be in the same angle as extractor of course.

Seems like lots of folks are running a 15# spring. Maybe that's the ticket?

I have tried many springs ISMI and Wolff between 12-20lbs and all have worked fine in .40 but go ahead and try then you find out will it work.

[XRe]

I am having a hard time believing that TG has anything to do with it whatsoever. The only thing, in that regard, that I could guess is that the difference in recoil might have you gripping the gun differently?

I can vouch for what Mike's saying, except that I did notice a slight difference in feel in the palm between the two, but not so much as to make a big difference. The muzzle flip was about 50% less with TG, though... But, the TG loads send brass all over the place. The PP loads don't - pretty much straight out the side consistently. Strange thing... I've seen Glocks spray brass like this before, but never seen it change when switching powders before - in any gun, really... That's what made me think it might be something that could be corrected or at least altered by spring setup....

[EricW]

Try using small rifle primers and see what happens. I have had issues with Titegroup where it had erratic ignition - particularly in cases with larger airspace like the 40.

[texasag93]

Question, does each shot feel and sound different with either load?

I may can shed a little light on this. I had a some eractic ejection issues with my 35 for awhile. I am shooting TG with a plated 180.

I had multiple things going against me.

1. I was getting erratic powder dumps from my 550.

2. I was getting bullet setback. This was found to be SPEER brass that was so thin at the neck that case neck tension and crimping wouldn't hold bullet in place. It took me awhile to figure this one out. I would have a misfeed in a match, rack the slide and move on. When I finally recovered a couple of rounds, I noticed that they were both SPEER brass. I took loaded rounds and could push the bullets back in the SPEER cases by hand but not the Rem, Win, Starline, ........ I started messuring the brass thickness at the case mouth of different brass and found the Speer to be much thinner for some reason???????? The SPEER brass came from a police range. Guessing it is SPEER Lawman ammo?

3. The plated bullets I was shooting are very slick. A lead bullet seated in the SPEER brass would not set back but the plated one would. I wasn't going to change bullets so out with all the SPEER brass(it also had a dang primer crimp!!!! ).

My 550 was do a break down and cleaning. I checked the powder measure and was getting 4.3 - 3.8 on each dump. That was part of the problem. It everything needed to be adjusted back to spec. The bullet set back was another. I now wipe them down with a cloth to get some of the oily residue off them before loading. This can be very dangerous with a high pressure round like the 40. Once I got all of this ironed out, my 35 ran great. Brass piles up just behind me and to the right. Don't know if any of this applies to you, but thought I would share my trial and tribulations.

PS- I do use small rifle primers in all of my 40 reloads.

Edited August 7, 2006 by texasag93

[Precision40]

You said you like The feel of Titegroup and it's consistent accross the chrono. If it works, does it really matter where the brass goes? Glocks are designed to be reliable and that's about all.

My 22, 34 and 35 threw brass all over the place as well, but they ran 100%

[AustinMike]

I was getting erratic powder dumps from my 550.

Powder dumps are pretty consistent. My powder assembly gets brushed out pretty frequently because I have a bunch of different powder bars that I've preset to the various charges I regularly use and I brush everything out when changing.

I was getting bullet setback.

The brass I was using in load development was all Speer, but don't know if it was Lawman specifically. I don't think I'm getting any setback though. Passed the "push test" and I'm using an undersize sizer, plus the Lee FCD crimping to .420, so it's unlikely. The bangs seem fairly consistent.

You said you like The feel of Titegroup and it's consistent accross the chrono. If it works, does it really matter where the brass goes?

I don't really care where the brass goes, since I don't even bother picking up .40 most of the time since it's cheap to buy once-fired. I don't want any stovepipe jams though! I brought up the subject because of the jams.

Since posting, I shot some Titegroup with some Precision Delta FMJ bullets, with a higher charge (4.7 grains.) That seemed to eject better for me. I'm wondering if maybe with the heavy stock recoil spring if the 4.3gr. with the Precision coated bullets wasn't enough to reliably work the slide even though it pushed the bullets to major PF (although seems weird to me. ) Interestingly, 4.7gr. wasn't pushing the jacketed bullets fast enough (only got me to 163PF out of my KKM G22 barrel.)

I'll have to order in a new recoil spring setup to try a 15# spring for kicks. Whether I ultimately stick with Titegroup will probably depend on which bullet I stay with. I don't think I want to push Titegroup much higher to reach PF with the jacketed bullets. Power Pistol makes it easily and I found that with the jacketed bullets it got real consistent at major PF (about 172PF with SD a little over 7 in a 10 shot group.) That 4.3 of Titegroup with the coated bullets felt SOFT though. We'll see!

Thanks everyone for the input!

[XRe]

That 4.3 of Titegroup with the coated bullets felt SOFT though.

Softer and flatter means easier to shoot, in my book, so... After shooting the gun with both loads, I'd personally be looking at the lighter recoil spring to try with the TG loads. The PP loads are definitely usable, but the TG loads were easier for me to handle - lighter recoil spring is going to help on the flip, some, too - w/ TG, that gun ought to handle awful quick...

It sounds like your TG load is still "sane"??? Seeing pressure signs, yet???

[AustinMike]

It sounds like your TG load is still "sane"??? Seeing pressure signs, yet???

No pressure signs, but I'm just wary of pushing TG to make major with the FMJs, since it's not getting there "easily" in my barrel. I'll have to do some searching when I have time, but I don't recall too many folks having to go higher than 4.7gr with a 180gr. jacketed bullet loading short. I'm more inclined to try V320 as a fast powder option if I decide to stick with jacketed bullets.

[Bird_Dog0347]

I just loaded my first .40 rounds yesterday and I plan to go to the range Thursday night. I am using 3.4 grains of TG and 185gr RNSWC lead bullets. I will let you know how they shoot out of my roommate's glock... with the stock barrel ...