Krag Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 I contacted USPSA and had Robin Taylor asked John Amidon point blank if the LTT Speed Bump trigger was legal for Producion. The answer follows: "Re: Modified triggers in Production. This is an external mod, right? The speed bump as he refers to is considered an external modification and not allowed, trigger work is. John" There is no joy in Mudville tonight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 So as an RO i have to check each beretta shooter that comes to the line? Oohh...going to make more than a few beretta shooters angry, but the rules are the rules....best to get them before they shoot than to have them compete and get DQ'd. So how many of you guys have one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 I hate to say "I told ya so" but ......... Actually I'm kinda pleased with myself that I correctly interpreted USPSA rules. Flex: Who da man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krag Posted November 1, 2002 Author Share Posted November 1, 2002 vluc - you ROs can do what an RO at a GSSF match confessed to me once. He said that they make a point of not looking too closely at competitors' pistols because if they started checking for modifications to "Stock" Glocks the attendance at matches would decline by about 50% (if not more). (Edited by Krag at 2:18 pm on Nov. 1, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krag Posted November 1, 2002 Author Share Posted November 1, 2002 John Amidon just sent me another e-mail. I quote: "Current edition rule book (red cover) page 92 under Production Division letter h) External modifications other than sights not allowed. That's about as official as you can get. If the work or addition he did is visible on the outside, it would then have to be considered external. John" Rats, foiled again!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Darth, YOU da man! Me...I might take this approach... not this... (I happen to be surrounded by these cheater guns) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted November 2, 2002 Share Posted November 2, 2002 Quote: from Flexmoney on 6:36 pm on Nov. 1, 2002 Darth, YOU da man! Me...I might take this approach... not this... (I happen to be surrounded by these cheater guns) Gack! [thread drift] Well i don't plan to become a range nazi by any means, but didn't we just have another thread that addressed rules and applications? Do we let a 180 break go by because we "know" the shooter is a good guy...or do we now make the local range determination that this is okay, let the person shoot and move up in class, then go to a big match and get DQ'd because of something that was preventable? Not that this alone will make the difference...unless you are the person that gets beat by a few tenths of a second! Sigh, the harsh reality of flipping over stones is that you may not like what you find...and this from a certified stone flipper! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted November 2, 2002 Share Posted November 2, 2002 Well I made a vow that as soon as I got my M card in Production, I'd buy a new gun for Limited. Looks like this gives me a bit of added incentive to do it before the next big match I go to. I better go and dry fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 vluc, the shooter never gets DQ'd for a non-permitted modification on his Production gun, he gets moved to Open class.... --Detlef PS who can pick out the mistake in this posting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 Are you rattling my chain? It's Open Division. Did I win a Kewpie Doll or a set of steak knives ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 I contacted John yesterday (2-3-2003) on this issue and received this reply. Too many posts, too many different interpretations. As an RO, I needed to know. Subj: Re: Speedbump Date: 2/4/03 4:32:19 PM Eastern Standard Time From: VP USPSA To: VLucchetti Hi Vince, I can see where someone would be confused, there were several emails, it started out talking just about the LLC trigger, of course we all know what that is.:-), my reply was that trigger work was allowed, a few days later, another email, again with the LLC, but this time, speedbump was added, I again replied that trigger work was allowed. Some time later, someone sent me a link showing the speedbump trigger and asked if this was legal, of course the trigger replacement is, but with the external modification, it is not. I have told Langdon in emails, that I do not have authority to overrule the rule book, and if an email was misleading or misinterpreted, the rules are still the rules, and that is, no external modifications other than sights allowed. So in closing, and to make it perfectly clear, the speedbump trigger in Production division, is not legal at this time. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 Who is primarily responsible with monitoring and enforcing division rules on the competitor? I cannot ever remember an RO questioning a competitors magazine length or examining the gun for compliance. Should this possibly be the job of the Chrono person? The only instance that I can remember where a person was questioned during a match (Fl. State Match) was a revolver shooter shooting a semi-automatic revolver with an optical sight and compensator in revolver division. The person declared major but failed to knock down a plate (not popper.. a PLATE!). The RO stopped the shooter and requested that the RM escort him to the Chrono station with his current ammo and he failed to make minor. He had previously declared and made major. Once the RM saw the gun the shooter was advised that he was in Open division and not revolver. After being declared sub minor the participant did not continue the match. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 Leo, Is that a typo or do you actually mean semi-automatic revolver? I know they exist but I've never known of one being used at an IPSC match. To answer your question, every RO should be doing at least a cursory equipment compliance check of every competitor. It only takes a few seconds and, in my experience, a closer check is rarely necessary, but it does happen. At our larger matches, competitors are often issued an "equipment card" on the back of their competitor ID, which describes the gun make, model, serial number and the position of his holster and mag pouches. The card is checked and signed by the CRO of each stage. For World Shoot, we go even further and competitors must go through a more thorough check on registration. Of course if you're a competitor and suspect another competitor is not being honest, a quiet word to the CRO should do the trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 Vince, No typo... it was a "Mateba" (sp?) I believe. The upper assembly (Barrel, cylinder, upper frame) recoils & slides rearward, similarly to a semi-auto, and rotates the cylinder and cocks the hammer in the process and then is returned to the original position by a small recoil spring. The distance traveled is not very far but enough to accomplish the purpose. The gun features a hammer block safety so that it can be holstered with the hammer back, like a 1911. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 Since I've always wondered myself, I thought I'd share: http://www.mateba-arms.com/page2.html http://home.mweb.co.za/af/afadrb/mateba.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Thanks guys. An interesting concept but, damn, they sure are ugly !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 L9X25, Range staff may not 'appear' to be checking equipment, but (assuming they are doing their job), they're paying attention. Also, if they do a good job in handling the situation, most people do not even notice it (unless the shooter talks about it later). Let me just say that at one of the matches last year, I unfortunately had to call the RM to examine magazines on three different occassions......... in the end, one was over-length, and the other two were legal. How many people saw this? How many people knew that something was being checked? Probably not many. Lots of this stuff still comes down to... if someone wants to try to slide something through, they will be able to do so.... a certain percentage of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Getting back to the original thread... I'm not a Beretta shooter, but my interest is piqued. What exactly is this trigger? Is there somewhere where I can find info on it. (Who knows, I might want one on my Taurus that I never shoot!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarryRM 18 Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 ROs and CROs should be checking equipment all the time, diplomatically of course. When the shooter presents him/herself to shoot, that is the time to do a quick check. As you become more experienced, when something isn't right, it can scream at you "Look at me". Not saying we haven't missed something or other at one time. You are right Vince, they are ugly. But they are not the first, Webley Fosberry ring a bell? I did assist some one years ago making repros of this revolver out of Mk 4s. a fosberry is interesting to shoot. I also seem to remember that Nagant may have also made one, but could be wrong. If I knew everything, there would be nothing to learn. And boy, am I on a learning curve. DVC Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 I frankly do not belive that many ROs even look at most of the competitors equipment anymore. After this discussion started I shot the Florida Open and spotted 2 folks on another squad that had extended base pads on their 170mm mags. It's not very difficult to spot when the base pad extends over a half inch below the locking pin (Grams type). A score keeper actually picked up one of the illegal mags and walked up to the shooter and, just when I though he was caught, he handed him the mag and said "good run" and walked away. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Despite opinions to the contrary, ROs are human too and they make mistakes. If you see a competitor who is not in compliance with the requirements of his division (or the rules generally), you should discreetly advise a range official. If no action is taken and you think the competitor has an unfair advantage, you can file a Third Party Protest. There's really no point in seeing something wrong and doing nothing about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 VP, here here... All, since this is a volunteer sport, it is everyone's job to pitch in and help in all aspects of running the match. If you see an un-pasted target.... if you see equipment that does not comply.... etc, etc, etc, the range staff always appreciates you bringing it to our attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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