PaulW Posted September 10, 2002 Share Posted September 10, 2002 Ok this question came up this weekend. We had a stage where you started with your gun on a table and you were seated. Course description mandated that you were to remain seated for the first three targets. One shooter stood shot the three targets, realized what he had done, sat down and re-engaged the three targets sitting down as stipulated. Are their procedual penalties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted September 10, 2002 Share Posted September 10, 2002 First, no field course may stipulate a shooting position, such as sitting. Now, assuming it was an otherwise legal course, did it say, "Engage T1-T3 while seated" or did it say, "Engage T1-T3 while seated only" ? If it didn't say only, he met the requirement. If it said only, one procedural (no significant advantage gained). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 10, 2002 Share Posted September 10, 2002 We had a stage like that... "had to stay seated to shoot"... last weekend. That is against the rules as far as I know. But, our regular...and experienced...match director hasn't made it to a match this year. He is bogged down with work. (poor guy) Paul, In your situation...forgetting the illegal mandate...the shooter has already punished himself by having to shoot the targets again...I don't see a reason to give him the double whammy of a procedural. So basically...what Erik said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted September 10, 2002 Share Posted September 10, 2002 I am confused. I thought that in a COF that consists of one shooting position, such as a 4 foot by 4 foot box behind a table, the description could stipulate shooting position. I thought it was only in field courses (like Erik said) that freestyle ruled supreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted September 10, 2002 Share Posted September 10, 2002 I'd like to see the rule that says you can't mandate a starting postion and mandate that three targets must be engaged while seated. Anyways, the shooter did not get penalties. I was just trying to figure out if he should have or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted September 10, 2002 Share Posted September 10, 2002 1.1.5 With the exception of Standard Exercises, a course of fire may not specify a shooting position or stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted September 10, 2002 Share Posted September 10, 2002 We were sitting not standing.....hahaha, just kidding. I guess I learned something new, cool. Kinda limits you in corse design don't you think? Ok, here is another course we had this weekend. 13 targets spread out in a semi-circle. Had a free fire zone that was probably 30 feet long. Start was feet outside free fire zone, you engaged 1 target only from outside both ends of the free fire zone and everything else from within the free fire zone. Legal stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Bagoly Posted September 10, 2002 Share Posted September 10, 2002 You can't shoot your way out of a procedural. If you fire a shot while faulting, you get a procedural. Shooting another shot while not faulting does not erase the procedural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted September 11, 2002 Share Posted September 11, 2002 Yeah legal for non-tournament matches (which is to say, club matches) in the U.S. Bigger matches have to be fully freestyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 11, 2002 Share Posted September 11, 2002 Quote: from PaulW on 4:51 pm on Sep. 10, 2002 Kinda limits you in corse design don't you think? Paul, I disagree. If you want everyone to shoot the course the exact same way, you'll need to erect a lot of vision barriers. But I don't think that's what freestyle is supposed to be about. If I get this correctly, then freestyle adds thinking to the shooting and moving skills necessary to complete a field course. If we were exactly equal in our physical abilities, and you think of a smarter way to engage the targets, you finish first with more points and win. Or conversely, if a GM makes a terrible plan, then an A shooter designing a stage plan that favors his skills and abilities, just might beat the GM. What I really like about freestyle is the flexibility it gives me. Today, I'm a pretty accurate shooter who isn't very fleet of foot. In a couple of years, when I'm hopefully better at this movement thing, my approach to field couses may very well change because I'll have a different skill set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sincityshooter Posted September 13, 2002 Share Posted September 13, 2002 We must not forget that these are local matches without the huge set-up staff required to set up tons of vision barriers. I see no problem with local clubs flexing the USPSA rules a little bit. After all, these COF's don't make it up to USPSA for approval. So, as a match director, I can see why the stage description states that the targets must be engaged while seated. Erik, I hope your local club doesn't get into the "only" statements. That only upsets the course designers and match director. I personally would give 1 procedural since the shooter was obviously standing there right in front of the chair. This would change if the shooter was advancing giving him an unfair advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmallard Posted February 20, 2003 Author Share Posted February 20, 2003 What happens when a competitor “shoots through” a target and knocks down a popper? What rule covers this? TIA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 9.1.5 says (in part) "In the event of a full bullet diameter hit on a paper scoring or penalty target where the shot continues on and strikes down a metal target, this is range equipment failure and the competitor shall be required to re-shoot the course of fire after it has been properly reset." Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmallard Posted February 20, 2003 Author Share Posted February 20, 2003 bgary, Thanks for the quick response. I looked (well I thought I did) all over the rule book and could not find any reference to this. Guess I need new glasses.  : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Bagoly Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 It's a Range quipment failure, and a reshoot is required. 9.1.5 It's also a failure of stage design and setup. 2.1.8 USPSA 14th ed. -------- Wow I've got to start typing faster. (Edited by Rich Bagoly at 10:59 pm on Feb. 19, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmallard Posted February 20, 2003 Author Share Posted February 20, 2003 Rich, Thanks for your quick response also, plus another applicable rule. Geez, maybe I need some reading lessons too. (Edited by jmallard at 12:03 am on Feb. 20, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Naw... you just need less things to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmallard Posted February 20, 2003 Author Share Posted February 20, 2003 Shooter Grrl, That's the ticket I knew you would think of something that would make it sound better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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