Fast splits

[spook]

I've noticed something over the last couple of weeks. It seems that I can't get splits faster then .25 with my revolver. And .25 is on point blank range (about 6 yards).

Now I was wondering why that is. I just can't put my finger on what the reason or solution is. I watch the FS go up and shoot again as soon as it's alligned again. I already have the feeling that if I go any "faster" that I lose control and can't call my shots anymore.

I know I should shoot as fast as I can see, but splits that are .35 regularly on 12 to 17 yard "easy" shots

are way to slow. And I don't believe (or am not willing to believe) that it's my equipment holding me back.

Do you have any suggestions?

Thanks,

Björn

[A33435]

Spook, we shoot to gether and we discuse about it.

Now you made this post i think that at the  close disstances 6-7 yards you are too focussed to see the FS.

I should say you want to see it to clear.

You know (with my G35) i can do realy fast splits (for me)  but at a 7 yards bill drill i only notice that the sights are aligned without seeing them clear.

Greetings

Adrie

[Detlef]

.35 splits on 17y A zone hits? Jerry, is that you?

--Detlef

(Edited by Detlef at 6:38 am on Nov. 27, 2002)

[spook]

Detlef, that's not that fast is it? Really, .35 at 17y is pushing it for me. And I heard Jerry got them down to .14 (at 5y OK, but still, he could easily do .25 at 17yards)

A3, I noticed it doesn't really matter what focus I have on close distances. Focussing on the FS gets me A hits easier (which is already too easy on close targets) and focussing on the target gets me splits that are still unacceptably slow.

Maybe I need to "prep" the trigger before the gun comes down from recoil, but I think that's risky. Really don't have a clue.

(Edited by spook at 12:18 pm on Nov. 27, 2002)

[BSeevers]

When you see Jerry Micklick shoot less than .15 breaks with a revolver it really puts it in perspective. He also can shoot the Ed Mcgivern drill. If you see it it is amazing.

I would try shooting as fast as I can into the bank no aiming. It helped me to see how fast I "could " shoot. But it does take practice and skill to even work the trigger that fast much less hit a target. Its not a built in ability even though it looks like it could be.

[shred]

Jerry definately is 'prepping' the trigger in close shooting-- if you watch his finger (or the hammer), it's in constant motion.  He uses timing to get the gun where it needs to be when the shots break.

[spook]

Bill (it is Bill isn't it?) an shred. You both have interesting points. Exactly what I feared . It takes actual live fire practice. It's not something that you "release" like tension free shooting. You have to build the skill by just rehearsing and spending ammo.....45 ACP ammo!!!  

Man, I've got to go practicing. I should have picked production class. It's cheaper. I'm just a poor student.

Thanks for the help guys

[BSeevers]

Spook

Not to depress you but I shot 57,000 rounds of .45 my first year of competition. I still shoot in the 30.000 rd range every year. It wasn't all good practice but yes you need Rds downrange. We now have tapes. books and forums to reduce the total Rds but yes tens of thousands to approach Jerry Micklicks talent. Kind of really makes you respect it huh? Well .45 lead can be loaded very cheap.

[spook]

Yeah, lead ammo. I train with about 5 people on an indoor range with a very bad ventilation system. I doubt if they would like that, but I can always ask them if they would mind. Besides, with the very low velocity .45 probably won't even smoke that much with lead bullets.

Thanks Bill.

[Alan550]

I talked to Jim Clark, Jr. (he's Jerry's brother-in-law) at Bianchi a couple of years back, and he made the comment that when he & Jerry are riding in to the shop in the mornings, Jerry sits on the passenger side dry-snapping a revolver all the way to work and back to the house in the evenings!  That's why Jerry's got forearms like Popeye!  So the muscle build-up is important as well as having the "fast-twitch" muscles to do the splits that he can accomplish.  Live fire helps to see how fast the gun recovers, and gives you an idea on the"trigger-prep" time too.  With practice, you can learn to prep it so that it's ready to go at the instant that you're back on target.

[Steve Anderson]

"Jerry sits on the passenger side dry-snapping a revolver all the way to work and back to the house in the evenings!"

Dedication...desire...commitment.

I just got a 1911, and I find it helpful to work the trigger back and forth after the hammer falls in dry fire to simulate the follow up shots.

Set a 2 second par time and do bill drills on hard targets in dry fire (draw, six shots) working the trigger back and forth to get used to pulling (ok purists, squeezing if you prefer, or slapping if you want:)) it that fast. You'll find it becomes easy after a couple of days. Then work your par time down.

SA

[Steve Moneypenny]

you need practice, forget the ammo for now, your problem is in the trigger finger! to opperate a DA revolver trigger that finger has to have some muscle attached to it, i'm talking working a heavy ugly trigger time after time, until you almost can't control the finger then some more... dryfire dryfire dry fire.

as i'm sure Steve Anderson will tell you, when starting production we did the same thing to make that first DA shot feel better. its what makes it all work, helps the brain fire the muscles faster, and makes the muscles work faster. then you need to relax and let it flow. if you don't want to dry fire, get some snap caps, or old cases. but they won't go far as the primer pocket only lasts for about 10 clicks.

[mcoliver]

Things I've noticed when working the trigger:

1.  Just realized with my glock I can confidently prep the trigger at the last phase of the draw then break the shot at full extension.  Haven't developed the same confidence yet with my 1911 even after months of dry fire.  However, successive pulls on the trigger after the hammer/striker is released, the takeup on my 1911 has a better feel than my glock (w/c has no takeup and feels funny if you keep pressing on the trigger.)

2. In dry fires, I feel comfortable with "faster" splits.  This is probably brought by the fact that the front sight never "disappears".  In live fire, I noticed I don't get the same "splits" and usually end up slower.

3. I don't like to break any shot if I don't get a glimpse of where the front sight is (not necessarily in relation to the target, need more work here).

Looking at my past videos of range practice, I've noticed significant increase in acuracy and "double tap" speed.  Progress really happens if you put in the dedication.  The kind of info we get is varied so the path we take to greatness also varies. But since I've gotten most of my info from the great people of this forum, I may be trudging along the path you guys have already taken.

[spook]

Alan, that's good to know. Unfortunately, I can only dry fire at home in my lovely country, but that's not an excuse. I'm dry firing like hell at home. I guess it just comes with time.

Smoney, don't mean to brag, but I have very strong hands/forearms. I can dryfire for hours without strains. Thanks for the tip though.

I guess it has to do with prepping the trigger for follow up. My hands are big. So I hold he gun kind of low. That means the flip is high and the FS almost leaves the A-zone. I thinks that's where I should start to prep. I notices this, because in dryfire I can pull the trigger so much faster than I do in live fire (and without losing the FS). So it all comes down to staying with the FS, which is so very important in revolver shooting.

Thanks for all the comments. Back to dryfiring.

[Duane Thomas]

Back when I carried a revolver as a concealment weapon (yes, I did!) and was practicing my splits, I found that if I waited to see my front sight back in the rear notch after the shot, I was slow. You just have to trust your technique that the gun is coming right back to the same spot once it's down out of recoil....and realize that the time it takes you to pull that double action trigger is longer than it'll take the gun to come down out of recoil. Align the gun, KNOW it's on target, and start working the trigger as fast as possible. The gun WILL be there by the time the next shot fires. Act like it's a race to see if you can fire the next shot before the gun comes down....and you'll find it's a race you can never win. But you do win because your shot-to-shot speed improves immensely, and the accuracy is still there. Use you eyesight to simply VERIFY what's happening. Don't go, "Okay, I see the front sight, now I can fire." Too much conscious thought, way too slow. By the time you see front sight is back where you want it, and begin pulling the trigger, the shot should have already been gone. Just let go and trust your index to realign the gun between shots.

[spook]

Duane, thanks, but have you found that it also works on longer shots?

[Duane Thomas]

Well, now you've asked me a question I don't know the answer to.

[George D]

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Quote: from Duane Thomas on 12:43 pm on Nov. 30, 2002

Back when I carried a revolver as a concealment weapon (yes, I did!)

---

I know you did. In fact I have photographic evidence of you fondling and caressing a beautiful heavily customised Smith 44 mag. So when did you stray from the true path?

[Duane Thomas]

Right about the time I split the forcing cone on my custom S&W M13 after almost exactly 1,000 rounds of full-power Magnums.

[George D]

Duane,

Please tell me you didn't sell that 44.  

Spook,

I haven't done that much work on split times but I was getting similar times to you. I started a thread on the subject sometime ago that you may care to look at. It is

http://www.brianenos.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard...=29&start=0

What Duane was suggesting sounds good to me so I'm going to give that a try.

[spook]

Thanks George. Please tell me your experiences on Duane's techniques, once you've tried them.  BTW, is revolver your main class.

Duane, LOL, I'll give it a try the next practice and see what I come up with.

[George D]

Yes, I've always preferred revolvers, specifically the ones with the big S&W on the side. I've only recently acquired my first centre-fire auto, and that's a S&W as well.

[Duane Thomas]

M29 gone. M13 gone. M15 gone. M642 still there, though. And I use a Smith M317, 60 and 66 in my training classes.

[George D]

Duane,

I have to tell you that I still have my Aug 91 copy of Handguns with your article "The case for the Custom Combat Handgun" and page 33 shows definate signs of drool deposits. It was that Smith M29 that caused me to remember the name Duane Thomas and to also seriously contravene the 13th commandment: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbours Smith and Wesson N-Frame"

[mcoliver]

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Quote: from Duane Thomas on 7:43 pm on Nov. 29, 2002

.... Use you eyesight to simply VERIFY what's happening. Don't go, "Okay, I see the front sight, now I can fire." Too much conscious thought, way too slow. By the time you see front sight is back where you want it, and begin pulling the trigger, the shot should have already been gone. Just let go and trust your index to realign the gun between shots.

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Of course!!  You get too hung up trying to SEE your sight you fail to realize you're now thinking instead of just observing your shooting. This I got to try... Thanks DT.