New Ruling

[Bigbadaboom]

The rules for Limited state "Compensators permitted? No." It doesn't distinguish between ported or non-ported compensators. It doesn't specifically state "Recoil Compensators". It just states "Compensators permitted? No." The STI "Tru-Sight" is a compensator. It has an expansion chamber inside it which in and of itself makes it a recoil compensator and it has the front sight placed on it so it's a sight radius "Compensator". I was leery of the SV "Sight tracker" but with the rules stating that slide porting is allowed and the sight not extending past the end of the slide I could find no argument against it but the "Tru-Sight" is totally out of line.

I believe that this is a "Let's be fair" ruling that was made to appease STI after the "Sight tracker" was allowed and I understand how much both companies donate to and do for our sport but to "bend" the rules to keep everyone happy is not good for our sport and I do not like it.

[L9X25]

The rules for Limited state "Compensators permitted? No." It doesn't distinguish between ported or non-ported compensators. It doesn't specifically state "Recoil Compensators". It just states "Compensators permitted? No." The STI "Tru-Sight" is a compensator. It has an expansion chamber inside it which in and of itself makes it a recoil compensator and it has the front sight placed on it so it's a sight radius "Compensator". I was leery of the SV "Sight tracker" but with the rules stating that slide porting is allowed and the sight not extending past the end of the slide I could find no argument against it but the "Tru-Sight" is totally out of line.

I believe that this is a "Let's be fair" ruling that was made to appease STI after the "Sight tracker" was allowed and I understand how much both companies donate to and do for our sport but to "bend" the rules to keep everyone happy is not good for our sport and I do not like it.

+1

[mpolans]

Under #18, the Sight Tracker probably should have been prohibited too as an "external modification" as the rib extends outside of the slide, it adds weight , and is designed to reduce recoil.

I understand both companies have contributed to the sport, but the converse can also be said. The sport has contributed tremendously to them...would both (or either) exist but for IPSC shooting?

Regardless, deficient rulings and/or inadequate definitions/rules hurt the sport in the long run.

Edited April 21, 2006 by mpolans

[38supPat]

I guess this just goes to prove that ultimately, Limited shooters want to shoot Open guns

[jmaracing]

Has anyone actually shot one of these to see if it's really a noticeable difference?

jmaracing

[wide45]

Has anyone actually shot one of these to see if it's really a noticeable difference?

jmaracing

Why would it matter? The rules deal with what it is, not what it does.

[mpolans]

Has anyone actually shot one of these to see if it's really a noticeable difference?

jmaracing

Why would it matter? The rules deal with what it is, not what it does.

Bingo. Whether either item works as advertised doesn't matter.

It's a matter of properly interpreting and enforcing the rules...or if needed, rewriting or redefining portions of the rulebook to make things clearer.

Edited June 6, 2006 by mpolans

[GeorgeInNePa]

Under #18, the Sight Tracker probably should have been prohibited too as an "external modification" as the rib extends outside of the slide, it adds weight , and is designed to reduce recoil.

The extra weight on the barrel is compensated for in the removal of weight from the slide. It's a wash.

I understand both companies have contributed to the sport, but the converse can also be said. The sport has contributed tremendously to them...would both (or either) exist but for IPSC shooting?

Regardless, deficient rulings and/or inadequate definitions/rules hurt the sport in the long run.

Edited June 6, 2006 by GeorgeInNePa

[wide45]

NROI Rulings

Title: STI TRUSight

Created: 3/29/06

Updated: 4/11/06

Effective: 4/11/06

Rule number: US Appendix D7/D

Applies to: Pistol

Ruling authority: John Amidon

Status: Released

Question

Has the STI TruSight been approved for Limited/Limited 10 division?

Ruling

Yes, NROI has received the proped documentation that this model has reached the requirments. It is legal in Limited/Limited 10 divisions in a 5" .40S&W caliber only.

Return to NROI Rulings

Copyright © 2004 USPSA, P.O. Box 811, Sedro Woolley WA 98284

You can't look at it as a modification of another model. It is a separate and complete configuration in of itself. The idea of an external weight added, or there being any other modification, does not apply.

The question does the Trusight constitute a compensater remains. NROI says no.

Edited June 6, 2006 by wide45

[38supPat]

Has anyone actually shot one of these to see if it's really a noticeable difference?

jmaracing

Why would it matter? The rules deal with what it is, not what it does.

I think he was just curious from a shooters standpoint, not the rules.

[Cjblackmon]

I know that this is a little off topic here but let me ask.

I was told that a Silencer/Suppresor slows down bullet velocity, I do notice quite a difference in recoil when shooting my H&K Tactical with WWB, but am unaware of velocity change cause I never chronoed it.

If this is correct.

If Comps do the same thing (slow down velocity by releasing pressure and lowering recoil), then would it not be a wash with recoil because they'd have to load more to make Major Power Factor?

Edited June 6, 2006 by Cjblackmon

[Genghis]

Great, detailed definitions here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compensator

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_brake

Is a barrel with an expansion port a compensator, even if there are no ports? I know some of the benefit comes from the gas pushing forward on the front of the chamber, but I think the traditional definition of "compensator" and "muzzle brake" would include ports.

Seems that the biggest benefits of these guns would come from the weight on the end, and the fact that the sight is stationary.

[shred]

I know that this is a little off topic here but let me ask.

I was told that a Silencer/Suppresor slows down bullet velocity, I do notice quite a difference in recoil when shooting my H&K Tactical with WWB, but am unaware of velocity change cause I never chronoed it.

If this is correct.

If Comps do the same thing (slow down velocity by releasing pressure and lowering recoil), then would it not be a wash with recoil because they'd have to load more to make Major Power Factor?

Actually a suppressor slows down the gas velocity, which is what does the suppressing.. and coincidentally provides extra recoil control. Compensation, if you will.

[RIIID]

This set up is also a sight radius extension which is supposed to be illegal in Limited.

Rich

[wide45]

This set up is also a sight radius extension which is supposed to be illegal in Limited.

Rich

The front sight doesn't extend past the end of the barrel. the rear sight is in the same place it always was. Extended How?

I remember that rule, it is gone. Try harder.

[wide45]

Most of the gimmicks being developed to improve a shooters performance is a waste

of money. Take the money and use it for a shooting class, for practice ammo, or a major match. That would be money well spent to improve your shooting ability.

With that said.

If someone builds a gun with a 6" slide and a 5" barrel. Take the slide and cut away the slide to a 5" profile except the top of the slide with the front sight. A 5" barrel is legal, a 6" slide is legal, and lightening a slide is legal. Is the gun legal? I'm building one right now for kicks and grins, all I want is the extended sight radius.

Rich

US APPENDIX D7

Limited Division

Special conditions:

16. Any complete handgun or components produced by a factory and available

to the general public for one year and 500 produced. Prototypes are specifically

not allowed.

17. Only porting of barrels is prohibited. Slides may be ported.

18. External modifications such as weights, or devices to control or reduce

recoil are specifically not allowed, such as but not limited to, thumb rest,

extended slide stops, etc.

19. Internal modifications to improve accuracy, reliability and function are

allowed. E.g. spherical bushings, Acc-U-Rails, replacement barrels provided

the barrel length is the same as original factory standard.

A 5" barrel is not factory standard on a gun using a 6" slide. No factory 5" gun is produced with an extended top, for a front sight.

Illegal mod.

[mpolans]

Under #18, the Sight Tracker probably should have been prohibited too as an "external modification" as the rib extends outside of the slide, it adds weight , and is designed to reduce recoil.

The extra weight on the barrel is compensated for in the removal of weight from the slide. It's a wash.

The argument that the extra weight on the barrel is compensated for removal of weight from the slide doesn't hold water for a few reasons:

1. Because the barrel's rib is not contained within the slide (whereas every other barrel is), it is arguably an external modification.

2. It would mean basing a ruling on the comparative weight of two parts, neither of which there is of a fixed standardized weight.

3. As one of the best gunsmiths in the country you must know better than most folks on here that adding weight to the barrel of a 1911 (such as by adding an unported rib on top of it) has the practical effect of increasing the inertial mass of the barrel thus reducing recoil.

Thus, it's:

a] an external modification;

b] that is a weight;

c] that reduces recoil.

Which is prohibited under item 18.

[mpolans]

NROI Rulings

Title: STI TRUSight

Has the STI TruSight been approved for Limited/Limited 10 division?

Ruling

Yes, NROI has received the proped documentation that this model has reached the requirments. It is legal in Limited/Limited 10 divisions in a 5" .40S&W caliber only.

Return to NROI Rulings

You can't look at it as a modification of another model. It is a separate and complete configuration in of itself. The idea of an external weight added, or there being any other modification, does not apply.

The question does the Trusight constitute a compensater remains. NROI says no.

I disagree, since I see foresee the TruSight top-end being sold separately as an upgrade kit. Besides, it's clearly not a brand new gun design...it's a modification performed on an existing gun design.

If I was shown a patent by STI that described the entire Trusight firearm as an entirely new design rather than the unported chamber being considered an improvement on an existing design, I might be more likely to agree with you.

If this flies, Clark ought to seriously consider digging up the old unported Pinmaster barrels, slapping them on some STI framed guns, calling them something like the "Pin Maestro" and claiming that they're entirely new guns.

FWIW, since the Trusight barrel weight is unported, I would say it's not a compensator. But IMHO it *is* a modification, it's still an external weight (seems to me, anything that is external to the gun could be an external weight) and it is designed to reduce recoil.

So, it should be prohibited under item 18: "External modifications such as weights, or devices to control or reduce recoil are specifically not allowed, such as but not limited to, thumb rest, extended slide stops, etc."

[mpolans]

Most of the gimmicks being developed to improve a shooters performance is a waste

of money. Take the money and use it for a shooting class, for practice ammo, or a major match. That would be money well spent to improve your shooting ability.

With that said.

If someone builds a gun with a 6" slide and a 5" barrel. Take the slide and cut away the slide to a 5" profile except the top of the slide with the front sight. A 5" barrel is legal, a 6" slide is legal, and lightening a slide is legal. Is the gun legal? I'm building one right now for kicks and grins, all I want is the extended sight radius.

Rich

US APPENDIX D7

Limited Division

Special conditions:

16. Any complete handgun or components produced by a factory and available

to the general public for one year and 500 produced. Prototypes are specifically

not allowed.

17. Only porting of barrels is prohibited. Slides may be ported.

18. External modifications such as weights, or devices to control or reduce

recoil are specifically not allowed, such as but not limited to, thumb rest,

extended slide stops, etc.

19. Internal modifications to improve accuracy, reliability and function are

allowed. E.g. spherical bushings, Acc-U-Rails, replacement barrels provided

the barrel length is the same as original factory standard.

A 5" barrel is not factory standard on a gun using a 6" slide. No factory 5" gun is produced with an extended top, for a front sight.

Illegal mod.

Just to play devil's advocate (it is 6/6/6 today, after all ), I'd say just build it with a 6" barrel and fit it with a Briley spherical bushing or a bull barrel in such a manner so that it will work in a 5" length slide.

Now *I* would think that someone could still claim the extra barrel length extending outside of the slide might be an external weight. However, rulings (that I disagree with) on the Trusight and the Sight tracker seem to indicate that weight that extends or is otherwise external to the slide doesn't matter. So you should be in good shape.

Further, even if I could wave a magic wand and I could reverse the rulings on the Sight Tracker and Trusight, I'd think could still argue that, "hey, the barrel isn't a weight external to the slide...rather, the slide's just radically lightened as specifically allowed in Special Condition 17 to expose the barrel."

People are probably going to hate me for suggesting it, but I bet consulting an attorney (maybe a patent attorney) when proposing rulings or considering new rules or amendments would really help clarify things for the future.

Edited June 7, 2006 by mpolans

[RIIID]

wide 45,

You high lighted the rule that makes the gun illegal (19). STI is starting with a short slide so they would have to use a short barrel. They produced a new model gun which after 500 produced you can modify other models, if it is legal. As far as I know STI never produced a short slide with a barrel sticking beyond it till the Trusight so where is the factory standard.This whole thing can be twisted around to how one wants to see it. I see it as a weighted device, an extended sight radius, and a comp. Once again USPSA can't follow their own set of rules.

In mpolan's idea a shortened 6" slide by 1" with a 6" bull barrel with a dovetail for a front sight or better yet a tungsten coned bushing. Ya thats the ticket. If the Trusight is legal then this set up would have to be legal.

Rich

[GeorgeInNePa]

Under #18, the Sight Tracker probably should have been prohibited too as an "external modification" as the rib extends outside of the slide, it adds weight , and is designed to reduce recoil.

The extra weight on the barrel is compensated for in the removal of weight from the slide. It's a wash.

The argument that the extra weight on the barrel is compensated for removal of weight from the slide doesn't hold water for a few reasons:

1. Because the barrel's rib is not contained within the slide (whereas every other barrel is), it is arguably an external modification.

2. It would mean basing a ruling on the comparative weight of two parts, neither of which there is of a fixed standardized weight.

3. As one of the best gunsmiths in the country you must know better than most folks on here that adding weight to the barrel of a 1911 (such as by adding an unported rib on top of it) has the practical effect of increasing the inertial mass of the barrel thus reducing recoil.

Thus, it's:

a] an external modification;

b] that is a weight;

c] that reduces recoil.

Which is prohibited under item 18.

You might have me confused with George Smith from EGW.

[mpolans]

Oops! I thought you were. I guess there's more than one George in PA

[wide45]

wide 45,

You high lighted the rule that makes the gun illegal (19). STI is starting with a short slide so they would have to use a short barrel. They produced a new model gun which after 500 produced you can modify other models, if it is legal. As far as I know STI never produced a short slide with a barrel sticking beyond it till the Trusight so where is the factory standard.This whole thing can be twisted around to how one wants to see it. I see it as a weighted device, an extended sight radius, and a comp. Once again USPSA can't follow their own set of rules.

In mpolan's idea a shortened 6" slide by 1" with a 6" bull barrel with a dovetail for a front sight or better yet a tungsten coned bushing. Ya thats the ticket. If the Trusight is legal then this set up would have to be legal.

Rich

STI has submitted documentation claiming that they have produced at least 500 TruSight guns, and have had this model available for sale for at least one year.

The TruSight IS a factory standard.

[Chriss Grube]

George Smith is great at fixing guns...georgeinnepa is great at breaking guns. Please never confuse the 2.

[Crusher]

Most times I run an STI Edge in USPSA, some times I run an STI Eagle in USPSA (both in Ltd.).

If some guy (competitor) comes in with his new "wammy jammy master blaster" that has been APPROVED for use in Ltd. division and kicks my arse with it I CERTAINLY am NOT going lessen my pain by deluding myself that his GUN bested me.

I was bested by A BETTER SHOOTER!

Plain and simple and more importantly FACTUAL!