Shooting Minor To Improve On Accuracy

[Flyin40]

I had thought about this last yr and wanted to do it but never did. I decided this yr to shoot minor in matches to emphasize accuracy and change my mental approach and outlook towards shooting stages.

I did it for the first time this past weekend. Though I was scored Major even though I marked minor(stats guy prob thought I just messed up, I'll have to start letting them know I want minor on purpose)

I approached the 3 outdoor stages with this mindset and shot 282pts out of 290, around 97.5% of points. I didn't attempt to slow up, just really see the A's.

By the time I shot the last 2 stages I was sick, didn't care about anything except leaving. I only made it down the road about 1mile before I had to pull over. So only using the 3 stages to go by I like the results.

Whats everyones take on this????

The biggest thing I noticed is I actually picked a "target spot".

Flyin40

[AlamoShooter]

Edited April 12, 2006 by AlamoShooter

[Loves2Shoot]

If trying to trick yourself works then go for it. How long it last is how long you believe your self deception.

Just trusting yourself seems simpler to me.

[EricW]

Either you're going to commit yourself to aiming the gun or you aren't. Power factor is beside the point.

BTDTGTTS

[mcoliver]

I's a mental and visual game. The rest are just tools that either help or hurt you depending on how you approach it. Shooting minor, in your case, helped you usher to approach it in a different but positive way.

[Flyin40]

So how do you guys approach it then. Just shooting A's hasn't worked yet. I'm a speed based person, always have been and its because of the success I have had with it. Not really talking about shooting, just sports in general.

The whole point of this is to change my mental thought process on shooting. Just shooting A's isn't working. Sometimes I do well with it but other times I struggle with it.

This is why I picked shooting minor as a way to "correct" how I look at shooting

You get instant feedback from the scores. You really see how points affect the overall outcome. With Major you can shoot C's and not really worry about it too much. Your trying to shoot A's but if you end up shooting a C your not that worried about it after the match. Thats something I want to change about how I look at my scores. I would guess the better shooters also look at a C as bad thing.

Never before in shooting have I thought so much about shooting A's during a match than last match shooting minor. How I approached every target, every stage and every shot revolved on how I was going to shoot an A.

Shooting a C in Minor is basically a miss in my book like shooting a D in Major. Unacceptable.

Until I can train myself to think this way all the time, even shooting major, I need to find something that will get me started in that direction. This was the best thing I came up with so far.

Any other suggestions????

I just need to do something to fix this. Any help appreciated.

BTW I'm still shooting my same major loads

Flyin40

[spook]

What EricW said.

Shooting minor will not make you shoot more accurate.

[shred]

Sounds like you've come up with a plan that makes you really focus on points instead of speed.

It looks like previously you were sorta telling yourself to get A's:

C: "Hey subconscious, it would be nice to get some A's, but do it fast"

S: "Sure, whatever. You want fast, you get fast"

then switching to Minor:

C: "Hey subconscious, I'm shooting minor. I really need A's. Aim smaller"

S: "Aimimg smaller, coming right up"

How you get there is far less important than getting there, and will vary by person and personality.

[Loves2Shoot]

Very few shooters don'thave the struggle you are talking about, myself included. Learning to know and and trust your skills while pushing yourself is the hard part. Sometimes you will fall over the edge sometimes not. Removing desire works the best for me, without emotion I shoot much better. BE has helped me with this in becoming an observer instead of a doer. If I simply observe what I'm doing I perform much better and more consistantly. Being overly critical of your performance can lead to much anxiety, which can negatively affect your performance.

Know what you can do and then do it, and don't forget to have fun along the way.

[Jake Di Vita]

Let your body do what it knows how to do.

[Ron Ankeny]

I started shooting Production at about the same time that I had built some real speed (for me) in Limited and Open. At first, the minor scoring took it's toll. Shooting Production was a great way to take another look at visual acceptability. My game plan changed and I started shooting a lot more A's because shooting A's as quickly as possible became the primary goal. Yes, I know that should be the goal in all divisions, but for whatever reason, I had become more interested in speed than in the A box.

I also spent a summer shooting L10 minor with my .38 Super single stack. Maybe it's a personality thing, but minor scoring gave me a reason to rely more on my vision and less on the illusion of speed. I have spoken to other shooters who have had a similar experience going from Limited to Production. I think it depends on one's perspective and temperament more than anything else.

[mcoliver]

Flyin40,

I'd like to think that you're already a seasoned shooter and, judging from your post, already cares enough about A's that you can actually already get them if we take speed out of the equation.

That being said, I'm willing to bet that at this point you can only squeeze out so much from your current shooting skills to be worrying about points only (though I'm not implying you don't totally). Consider for a moment that the performance gain you're looking for may not even be from your shooting but from something else.

On the average, how do you stack up against the local talents? Is your performance spiking or relatively consistent? How aware are you about your performance on days that you didn't feel too good yet still came out ahead? Some of the multitude of questions, I feel, one should be asking.

IMO, it comes to a point where as a shooter, we need to stop looking exclusively at how we put bulllets on targets and start bringing in the "other stuff". Mix them up and find the "just right" combination which will work for us better than what is working for others.

I hope that made sense.

[Flyin40]

I been shooting about a yr, I started in 1999 for about 6months but didn't touch a pistol again last spring. So basically last yr was my first yr shooting. I started in C class and I'm currently M class. The best way to describe how I approach my shooting or sports in general in describe in the topic "Max Michel Says".

I have always thought this way. You practice slow to shoot well then speed up later or shoot fast and learn how to shoot accurately fast. You can start out shooting slow and accurate but what happens as soon as you speed up or try to see faster??? You have to learn how to shoot fast now or see faster. Last yr I worked on the basics, beginning of the yr was just grip, stance etc. I went to over 25 or 30 matches for the yr. At matches I constanstly tried everything to try to learn. Shooting swingers, engaging targets from different positions etc to see which was best. By mid season I was working more on walk throughs and figuring out how to shoot stages and beginning to work on movement. By the end of the season I was still working on entering positions, exiting, shooting on the move.

Basically I was working on everything you can think of except accuracy. I was trying to shoot A's but it wasn't main things I was working on. Theres was too much to work on. I tried a few times to shoot all A's but it tended to consume all my attention and everything went out the window, all the stuff I had been working on the entire yr. So I waited to work on accuracy this yr. About Sept/Oct I realized what calling the shot and started to understand "vision" and "seeing".

I do well in the local matches, usually finish in the top and have stage wins against GM's. But inconsistency kills me, lack of visual patience and follow through from a speed based outlook. Thats the entire point of this topic, Changing my outlook and mental thought process towards speed vs accuracy. Basically get rid of speed altogether, not worry about it and just see. Speed will happen without worrying about it.

Its the bigger courses that I struggle with, to be able to nail them, I don't shot them badly, extra .5 secs here and there entering positions, leaving, not stopping in exactly the right spot adds up. I don't have movement down yet, hitting the right spots, getting better but still have alot of work to do.

Now that I feel I have a good base to go off of I can put my energy in to 2 things and really not worry about the rest. First is movement and second is vision and seeing or accuracy in other words. Picking targets spots instead of seeing brown and becoming aware of whats going on.

Its not the process of actually shooting A's that I'm trying to change, its the mental thought process I go through to shoot A's.

I want to approach a stage and look at it and try to figure out the best and most accurate way to shoot it. My current way is "Whats the fastest Way to shoot this Stage"

This thought process goes way back before my shooting, just sports in general. So I already know this is going to take some effort to change this. I'm a speed based person, just about everything I look at is based on speed. Just like pasting targets, this seems trivial but I paste them quickly to get done so the next shooter can shoot. This is all in my mental process and has been reninforced for my entire life.

Shooting Minor makes me do nothing more than slow my thought process down and focus on target spots during walkthrough and think about what I need to see to shoot an A.

Shooting Minor doesn't make me shoot more A's, it allows me to change how I approach a stage. I tried just thinking and working on A's but I quickly go right back to "shoot this stage as fast as possible" which is where my inconsistency comes from, mikes and D's. I think this yr I have shot 6 or 7 matches with 8 or so misses. All a result from not seeing and going fast.

Basically I'm looking for suggestions on different ways I can approach this. Looking for any help with this. Feel free to make suggestions on how you approach it.

Flyin40

[Ron Ankeny]

Flyin40:

Sounds like you are just the opposite from me. I came into this sport from precision shooting and I worked for years to get over the notion of needing to be accurate. Faster, faster, faster, faster...until I went overboard and sacrificed all accuracy (visual and trigger manipulation) for speed. Shooting Production did nothing more than bring me back to my senses and it made me pay attention.

About a year ago when my vision went in the toilet, I slowed way down because I could actually shoot faster than I could see. I kid you not. Now that I am going to a dot gun, I know I will have the same problems that you described. It's odd how we both arrived at the same spot coming down two completely different paths.

I know the solution for me is to simply see what is right in front of me and just shoot. That sounds really simplistic, but I know the result will be a good balance of points vs. time on the trigger. My problem is I spent way too much time working on trigger speed when I should have been working on performing the non-shooting tasks quickly and efficiently.

I don't suppose that helps a whole lot, but at least you know you aren't alone. BTW, going from C to M that quickly is wayyyy cool.

[Chris Keen]

John,

Here's what I have done in the last few months to get where you are at now.

I sold my open gun (Glock) to finace buiding a 'real' open gun, and therefore started shooting "iron sights". Being so adapt to open division, my natural 2nd choice of divisions was Limited. It's almost like open, but with regular sights. I did ok, but struggled some with accuracy.

Then my Limited gun needed some repairs so I sent it off, and started shooting Production. I had so much fun, and did so well with this, that I decided to have some more fun and started shooting Limited 10 MINOR! Everyone I knew thought I was crazy, but I started winning L-10 everywhere I went.

Finally last week, I decided NOT to slow down, but told myself to shoot ALL A's, and even though it added maybe a second to my times, I started to "see" what Brian talks about with MUCH clarity, and as a result my stage points climbed higher than they have ever been in my past. Now I feel the same as you do. I want to shoot MINOR all over town! I plan on shooting Production at all the Major matches I have signed up for this year, but in-between them I will be shooting L-10 MINOR at all the club matches I go to. Same gun ..... same loads ....... MORE FUN!

[boo radley]

I tried just thinking and working on A's but I quickly go right back to "shoot this stage as fast as possible" which is where my inconsistency comes from, mikes and D's. I think this yr I have shot 6 or 7 matches with 8 or so misses. All a result from not seeing and going fast.

Basically I'm looking for suggestions on different ways I can approach this. Looking for any help with this. Feel free to make suggestions on how you approach it.

Flyin40

Man, that's some quick qrowth!

If you find the answer, please share it, as I suffer the same disease. I can't tell you how many times I've gone into local matches swearing I'll shoot nothing but "A's" and have that plan evaporate the moment the buzzer sounds.

[Flyin40]

When your shooting weekly or at least montly with SAnderson, FLexmoney, JDiVita, Moneypenny, Seevers, Keen, BHoffman, Da Littmans and a ton of others is hard NOT to improve. Theres so many times I picked things up that I would of eventually figured out down the road but was able to learn them early.

Then add in this forum and there is your formula for success. All the pointers and tips these guys helped me with I probably owe $10,000 in training fees or a beer, yeah thats sounds better.........just a beer at Renos.

Flyin40

Edited April 13, 2006 by Flyin40

[Chris Keen]

+1

I have learned tremendous amounts of insight, new skills I didn't know I had, and lots of "lessons learned the hard way" ...... without going through all the pain myself just shooting weekly with Bill Seevers.

So ........I can only imagine the tips & skills you've picked up from Steve Anderson, Flexmoney & DiVitta.

I suppose we all have to have our own local 'heros'. BE was the first (coming from Ohio himself) and I can't put a price on what I have learned from his books & this forum, but it's even better to be able to watch someone put those skills into use right in front of your eyes.

Edited April 13, 2006 by C.Keen

[Ron Ankeny]

When your shooting weekly or at least montly with SAnderson, FLexmoney, JDiVita, Moneypenny, Seevers, Keen, BHoffman, Da Littmans and a ton of others is hard NOT to improve.

I envy you. There is one GM shooter in my whole state and only four Masters. I would dare say this forum is the primary source of information for John, Sam, and myself. Being isolated and pretty much self taught isn't exactly the fast track to improvement. Sometimes I will learn more in one afternoon of practicing with Sam than I'll take away from a year's worth of local matches. Being a big frog in a small pond can build a false sense of security in a hurry.

[Loves2Shoot]

Being isolated and pretty much self taught isn't exactly the fast track to improvement. Sometimes I will learn more in one afternoon of practicing with Sam than I'll take away from a year's worth of local matches. Being a big frog in a small pond can build a false sense of security in a hurry.

I resemble that comment. Being isolated and gas being so expensive sucks. At least I have a student who wants to make master this year and has the time and $$$ to train. It has already pushed my own training up a notch. This forum has also made me push myself even more, even if I can't shoot more bigger matches.

[Flyin40]

Update

After quite a few matches and a few months of shooting minor I think I'm going back to shooting major. Shooting minor worked, theres no doubt. It made me focus on seeing and accuracy and got me away from speed. Glad I did it.

Flyin40

[Chris Keen]

........................

[Flyin40]

Shot another match this weekend...........92%-93% of points. Felt good to shoot all those A's. It felt even better to see the Azone and call the shot.

Couple more matches and I think I'll have reinforced accuracy enough in matches that I'll start working on other things again.

After looking back I think changing my thought process and outlook was one of the hardest things I have had to do yet but well worth it.

Flyin40

[Steve Moneypenny]

John, progress is always great. but seeing sights all the time is just plain awesome.

Now now to teach your self to program it and just sit back and enjoy the ride.

[Flyin40]

John, progress is always great. but seeing sights all the time is just plain awesome.

Now now to teach your self to program it and just sit back and enjoy the ride.

Just shot the Firecracker match in New York, shot 92% of points. Thats about 6 matches in a row over 90% of points. I think I finally made it over the hump.

Looking back at shooting minor I still view it the same way. It changed my focus from speed to points. Actually shooting minor didn't really do anything, it was the mental thought process and preparation I had to go through to shoot points that changed everythinng along with "With Winning in Mind".

Call it the trick of the day.

Flyin40