How About Classifying On The Curve, Especially At

[andrewcolglazier]

The different classes truly call for different techniques

Hows that? I don't understand how someone can be a master class ESP shooter, but be a Sharpshooter class SSP? Or CDP expert, but ESP Marksman? Sometimes with the same gun.... To me, in IDPA a Master shooter is a Master shooter, no matter what div they are shooting in that day. The old "its the indian, not the arrow" thing. I think its just too common to see someone when their class at a sactioned match and get bumped up a class, just to see them at the next major match shooting a lower class in different div.

And yes I'm a SSP Master, just so you guys don't think I have a personal stake in people "bumping down." I just think its wrong. people should shoot in their highest class. I guess I could make the same argument for some of the USPSA div. also, but thats a different sub-forum.

IMO, one should work from the standpoint that every person shooting in his/her class/division is doing the best they can.

When I shoot a particular division, I am trying to "marry" the gun I am shooting, meaning, I am going to make every effort to shoot as well as I can with the weapon I brought that day.

That doesn't mean that the weapon is up to snuff competing in that division. And it doesn't mean that I have enough time with that weapon to get the most out of our combined performance.

For example; SSR. I've been classified SS in SSR since 2000 or so. Since then I haven't put any time into the division, though I shoot the division occasionally at club matches, where I am usually theonly revo shooter. Should I be an EX in SSR? Objectively, I'd have to say no. I don't have the skills. Can I shoot the gun fast? Yes, but my reloads are slow as molasses in January. I'm no EX with that gun.

Take ESP; I have a CZ75SA. Lovely gun, accurate, well made, ergonomic. But the mags don't always drop free as they should. It's extremely annoying to be ready to leave cover while performing a slidelock reload... and have to jump back because the mag didn't drop free when it was supposed to, or on a speed standard to have to pull the mag out of the gun when you should be shooting already.....! I have a G34 I shoot also, but I just added a magwell to the gun, which (d'oh) I don't have on my SSP gun, and guess what??? It does make a difference! It's taking me some time to learn how to use the damn thing with the mag guide on there, because it doesn't feel the same as my 17 and it's distracting. I've had to change my reload to assure that I seat my mags consistently, relearning technique.

I could go on. The fact of the matter is that I don't have the time or the inclination to move up in all these divisions as I have with SSP. And in fact, I won't be able to because so many EX level shooters have dropped out of the sport. I have shot the Classifier numerous times, and never shot above EX in any auto division, and never above SS in any revolver division.

Objectively speaking, my class standings are right where they ought to be. And right where they deserve to be.

Andy C.

Edited March 31, 2006 by andrewcolglazier

[Gun Geek]

Lumping someone who is a master into master or even expert in all divisions is making some pretty hefty assumptions! I assume that folks who want to do that haven't tried shooting for score in all five divisions....

Andy C.

I haven't tried in 5 divisions, but I have shot 3 divisions. I'm in the camp of classifying 1 down in other divisions from your highest. Much of the skills (both the classifier and match) that put a shooter in a class are very much transferrable from one class to another (Indian, not the arrow).

This is especially true of match skills (very few matches are won or lost on split times being 10% different, except maybe between Burkett and Langdon). Lots are won or lost on procedurals, mistakes, approach to shooting a stage, etc. That stuff translates. Split times are equipment dependent and don't translate.

Sorry - continued the drift...

[andrewcolglazier]

Lumping someone who is a master into master or even expert in all divisions is making some pretty hefty assumptions! I assume that folks who want to do that haven't tried shooting for score in all five divisions....

Andy C.

I haven't tried in 5 divisions, but I have shot 3 divisions. I'm in the camp of classifying 1 down in other divisions from your highest. Much of the skills (both the classifier and match) that put a shooter in a class are very much transferrable from one class to another (Indian, not the arrow).

This is especially true of match skills (very few matches are won or lost on split times being 10% different, except maybe between Burkett and Langdon). Lots are won or lost on procedurals, mistakes, approach to shooting a stage, etc. That stuff translates. Split times are equipment dependent and don't translate.

Sorry - continued the drift...

True, many things are transferrable, but many other things are not. Going from a soft-recoiling, 10-11 shot 2.5 lb.-triggered 9mm ESP pistol to a 3" fixed-sighted, round-butted .357 K frame with a 10 lb. double action pull, and a completely different method of reloading loses a fair amount in the translation, I'm here to tell you!

Not only are the weapons completely different, but so is the manner of approaching a course of fire, with almost half the available rounds before a reload.

It is easier to make MA in SSP than ESP... the ESP guns are easier to shoot and therefore the scale is correspondingly more difficult. The difficulty of shooting a DA/SA SIG is substantial when compared with a custom 1911.....

I find that most people advocating handing out similar classifications in all divisions based on performance in only one are usually people who don't shoot in all, or even most divisions. If you shoot an auto, pick up a revolver some time and see how you fare... let me know if you still feel the same after about 6 months.....

Andy C.

[nealham]

I see one shortcoming in the IDPA classification system. Why does it stop at Master. When you move from MM to SS or SS to EXP, you are still going to be shooting against shooters in your general ability. When you move from EXP to MA you are now shooting against world class shooters if you go to any decent type of major match. While I can give most any EXP level shooter a good run for their money, even my egotistical ass can't bring myself to believe that Dave, Robbie, or any of the other big name, world class shooters are going to be looking over their shoulders worrying about what I am doing on a stage. While IDPA is a trophy only sport, a major match is not a cheap event for many of us. Between time off work, travel, hotels, food, ect we are talking a decent chunk of change. I would like to know that if I shoot at my best ability, I at least have a chance of walking out of the match with a little something other then a Glock hat from the prize table.

Neal

[Clay1]

Neal, right from the introduction section of the rulebook:

"One of the unique facets of this sport is that it is geared toward the new or average shooter, yet is fun, challenging and rewarding for the experienced shooter. The founders developed the sport so that practical gear and practical guns may be used competitively. An interested person can spend a minimal amount on equipment and still be competitive."

The game was never meant to be IPSC.

This is not a cut but many times I have heard people that are cross over shooters talk about master class IDPA shooters having the skill set of an A/B IPSC shooter. Again, IDPA is geared toward the average shooter. Go shoot, go have fun and compete against yourself.

Rick

Edited April 1, 2006 by Clay1

[Crusher]

even my egotistical ass can't bring myself to believe that Dave, Robbie, or any of the other big name, world class shooters are going to be looking over their shoulders worrying about what I am doing on a stage.

With enough practice they just may be.

[kdmoore]

I shoot mostly ESP, SSP in the past. Have dabbled with CDP. Just put a Revolver in the mix for fun.

I agree with classifying no lower than one lower then your max. The reloads, the splits, modifications. All of that stuff is factored into the scoring in the classifier. I agree that it's mostly the indian, not so much the arrow.

Beginning of this thread was about "fighting the sandbagger". Not worth it in my opinion. Who cares what they do. If you are worried about them, you are thinking too much about external, non important factors. Besides, you can't legislate or fight the mindset of a sandbagger. And you'll ruin the sport trying to "fix" a few bad apples. The classification system is fine the way it is. I'll forego working the classifier into matches in the name of diversity.

I do agree there needs to be one extra super master class. We had a long discussion about that a bit earlier in this forum.

[Derek45]

Yep, Who cares what the sandbagger is doing.

. . . just shoot

[f250sd]

Andy C. , If you reread my initial post, I did not suggest carring an autopistol classification over to revolver classes. Your reasoning why you should have different classifications between ESP,SSP,+ CDP, is about equipment failures and being unfamiliar with a slightly different gun. While I understand what your saying, I'm talking about skill leval. Take your Glock 21 and shoot it in all three divisions, and tell me if there is a difference in your match performance, just because you entered the match in a different Div.

I do like the idea of not going more than 1 class under your top class.

[andrewcolglazier]

Andy C. , If you reread my initial post, I did not suggest carring an autopistol classification over to revolver classes. Your reasoning why you should have different classifications between ESP,SSP,+ CDP, is about equipment failures and being unfamiliar with a slightly different gun. While I understand what your saying, I'm talking about skill leval. Take your Glock 21 and shoot it in all three divisions, and tell me if there is a difference in your match performance, just because you entered the match in a different Div.

I do like the idea of not going more than 1 class under your top class.

I understand what you are saying, but my point, and the entire reason we have different divisions, is that I don't shoot one gun in three different divisions.

I shoot a different gun with different manual of arms in each division, which makes a great deal of difference when it comes to making a difference in match performance.

Andy C.

[Chills1994]

mmnn.. er.....some would say that:

sandbagging = cheating

and just because people want to excuse it or rationalize it by saying that everyone else is doing it, doesn't make it right.

anywhoooo.....I'm still sticking to my guns here....that the current IDPA classification system is susceptible to too much gaming....mmm...er... cheating....and that I am using this forum to kick around some ideas to make things fairer/better...for everyone.

somehwhere here on this forum in the hate or like section a guy with a good perspective on things sums it up best:

drive the gun of your choice and shoot the CoF

I wish in the real world, though, things, could be that simple.

okay, you all can call me a whiner now....I don't care. Make fun of me all you want.

[Crusher]

drive the gun of your choice and shoot the CoF

I wish in the real world, though, things, could be that simple.

Chills no offense, but things are that simple. If losing concerns you (regardless of what the shooter(s) class that best you) do what it takes to increase your performance/skill level.

Don't shoot for the plaques/trophies, shoot for yourself, in the end you will wind up a much better skilled shooter for it.

[richardschennberg]

FWIW, last time I talked to Rob Leatham, he was the IDPA director (or whatever the title is) for his home state. He also mentioned that his main focus in an IDPA match was not committing any procedurals or FTDR. The fast shooters are just about on the honor system because they move and shoot so fast that it would be hard for an SO to make a "cover" procedural call anyway.

I have been squaded with Dave Sevigny and Julie Goloski at the 2005 Single Stack Classic. Rob, Dave, and Julie are top shooters who are fair to and friendly with other shooters. They don't act upity just because they win matches. Not everyone has the time and talent to master both sports with a real chance of HOA in a national or international match. I think we should commend successful competitors and not complain that we can't beat them.

[nealham]

I've had the opportunity to shoot with both Robbie and Dave. They are indeed both great people in general and very friendly and helpful. During a regular monthly match, Dave is the first one out taping targets or grabbing the timer to RO. I have no idea where the last comment of your post came from but if it was in response to my earlier post about IDPA having an additional "Grand Master" class than I still have to stick to my logic. No matter how nice these shooters are and have much I enjoyed being squadded with/shooting with them, it does not change the fact that I should not be competing in the same classification with them. It is nothing against them, it is a statement about an improvement that I feel would better IDPA and at the Expert/Master level, stop some of the sandbagging that people are complaining about.

Neal

FWIW, last time I talked to Rob Leatham, he was the IDPA director (or whatever the title is) for his home state. He also mentioned that his main focus in an IDPA match was not committing any procedurals or FTDR. The fast shooters are just about on the honor system because they move and shoot so fast that it would be hard for an SO to make a "cover" procedural call anyway.

I have been squaded with Dave Sevigny and Julie Goloski at the 2005 Single Stack Classic. Rob, Dave, and Julie are top shooters who are fair to and friendly with other shooters. They don't act upity just because they win matches. Not everyone has the time and talent to master both sports with a real chance of HOA in a national or international match. I think we should commend successful competitors and not complain that we can't beat them.

[solaritx]

The new IDPA rule book states specifically that shooter will reclassify yearly. The wording does not give the flexibility of "should reclassify" but rather "must reclassify".

I have shot 2 Regional matches and 1 State match recently (after the new rules are out) and not once has anyone asked me for my Classification card (I reclassified in all 5 divisions).

The Texas Match in June specifically states on the application form that IDPA membership and Classification are required to shoot the match....so some are checking.

My question is this: If it is an IDPA rule that one must reclassify yearly.... Shouldn’t all major matches check to make sure that the shooter is "qualified" per IDPA rules to shoot that match in that division/classification? If not reclassified yearly, tech. the shooter is "unclassified" and therefore should be shooting "master" as is normally done for Unclassified shooters. I believe that this new rule change was to specifically address "sandbagging" but if matches (especially major matches) don't check.......well?

Garry N

[JD45]

I've been an IDPA member for six years. I don't really believe that any class system works like it was intended to.

I do see where people are coming from though. A guy that pays 80-125 dollars for a state match, plus gas, ammo, and practice expenses, might be a little happier if he wasn't beat in Sharpshooter class by some dude that shot three points less than second place Master.

The only solution I can come up with is to add maybe 2-4 "hidden/secret" classifier stages in each big match.

Also, will someone please give us the last word about the annual re-classify deal. Nobody wants to drive to a big match and be in trouble because they didn't shoot the classifier in the specified(which is?) time frame.

[Crusher]

...might be a little happier if he wasn't beat in Sharpshooter class by some dude that shot three points less than second place Master.

Ha check out some of the scores from past IDPA matches on the website. There are masters that get beat by sharpshhoters in many bigger IDPA matches (those with 150 or more participants). Is it good sharpshooters or bad masters? who knows?

The same goes for USPSA Area matches in the divisions Masters and GM too are sometimes bested by lower classified shooters, "$#!+ happens"

Untill there is a centralized database with a for the classification system with mutliple classifing stages that are representative of match equivelant skills in place "it is what it is".

One of the pitfalls of a new or inexperienced shooter can have is going into a major match with the expectation of comming home with a plaque.

[solaritx]

From IDPA Rule Book: Page 52

Shooter Responsibilities.

1. ALWAYS follow the four laws of gun safety.

2. ALWAYS be conscious of muzzle direction.

3. Refrain from having finger in the trigger guard when not actually engaging targets.

4. Exhibit safe gun handling at all times.

5. Follow the rules in this book and any match-specific or range-specific rules.

6. Acquire and use IDPA legal equipment.

7. Obtain a valid classification and maintain it by shooting the classifier at least once every twelve (12) months (except master class shooters).

8. Assist in taping targets and picking up brass.

9. Be ready to shoot when called to the line (i.e., have appropriate ammo, concealment garment, etc.).

10. Be courteous and respectful to the match officials and other shooters.

11. In addition, have fun, socialize, learn and improve your gun handling and shooting skills.

NOTE: #7. Specifically states that one MUST OBTAIN AND MAINTAIN A VALID CLASSIFICATION, and then futher defines "maintain" as shooting a classifier AT LEAST ONCE EVERY TWELVE MONTHS (except Master Class Shooters)

I believe that in some early drafts of the "new" rules the wording was "should maintain". The current rules does not state "should" mut states that one of the shooter's Responsibilities is that he/she MAINTAIN their classification. This means that the shooter MUST reshoot each and every division that they want to maintain a classification in. If you are 5 gun classified, that means shooting 5 classifiers yearly.

This means that you have to shoot and have your card signed off every 12 months or you have NO PROOF that you MAINTAINED your classification.

Pretty straight forward. No grey areas that I can see.

Garry N

[Mayonaise]

Gary, it's pretty much pointless to try to force shooters to "maintain" their classification yearly without a database. Plus they tell you that each club should run the classifier as their first match each year. Can't say that I've seen that happen yet. What happens if you legitimately miss that match? Plus you can't be moved down unless you have a disability so sandbagging is still an option to those knuckleheads that want to do that.

No matter what you do to stop sandbagging there's still going to be those who do it. Plus, what's to say that a shooter just doesn't get a chance to reclassify before a big match and smokes the class. Is he wrong in doing that? Or is it just that he didn't have an opportunity to reclassify?

We have an honor system going in this sport. Naturally there will be a few rotten apples that lack that character trait. When it's obvious perhaps they should be exposed. The concept of shame for the large part has been lost in our society over the last couple of decades. Too bad.

Edited April 7, 2006 by Mayonaise

[Gregg K]

Here is the problem. The rule book states..

7. Obtain a valid classification and maintain it by shooting the classifier at least once every twelve (12) months (except master class shooters).

It doesn't say in what the shooter is to be classified in. Due to the lack of proper wording a shooter could get a valid classification in SSR within the last year and then go sandbag ESP.

The rule should of said 7. Obtain a valid classification and maintain it by shooting the classifier at least once every twelve (12) months for each division he will compete in except (master class shooters).

Edited April 7, 2006 by Gregg K

[andrewcolglazier]

The new IDPA rule book states specifically that shooter will reclassify yearly. The wording does not give the flexibility of "should reclassify" but rather "must reclassify".

My question is this: If it is an IDPA rule that one must reclassify yearly.... Shouldn’t all major matches check to make sure that the shooter is "qualified" per IDPA rules to shoot that match in that division/classification? If not reclassified yearly, tech. the shooter is "unclassified" and therefore should be shooting "master" as is normally done for Unclassified shooters. I believe that this new rule change was to specifically address "sandbagging" but if matches (especially major matches) don't check.......well?

Garry N

I'm a MA... do I have to shoot the classifier?

Too much reliance on the classifier to stop sandbagging. I see "paper" masters get their tails handed to them by MM and SS all the time. Doing well on the classifier don't mean much to a shooter who has moved up by winning their divisions at major matches.

There is no provision for unclassified shooters in IDPA. If you aren't classified in a particular division, you aren't supposed to be shooting that division in a major match.

IDPA could go the way of USPSA and award trophies for an "Unclassified" division shooter. It would allow shooters who are just starting in a particular division to have a reason to shoot, rather than excluding them.

Andy C.

[Ben Stoeger]

We have an honor system going in this sport. Naturally there will be a few rotten apples that lack that character trait.

Pretty much sums it up.

[nealham]

Great point. That is my understanding as well. However, it is a nightmare for the average size IDPA club to manage. Especially for people like many of us that maintain classifications in all 5 divisions. As a shoot who attends sanctioned matches, I take it upon myself to ensure I have a classification in the division I'm shooting within a year of the match I'm shooting but that is me, not the club.

Neal

The new IDPA rule book states specifically that shooter will reclassify yearly. The wording does not give the flexibility of "should reclassify" but rather "must reclassify".

I have shot 2 Regional matches and 1 State match recently (after the new rules are out) and not once has anyone asked me for my Classification card (I reclassified in all 5 divisions).

The Texas Match in June specifically states on the application form that IDPA membership and Classification are required to shoot the match....so some are checking.

My question is this: If it is an IDPA rule that one must reclassify yearly.... Shouldn’t all major matches check to make sure that the shooter is "qualified" per IDPA rules to shoot that match in that division/classification? If not reclassified yearly, tech. the shooter is "unclassified" and therefore should be shooting "master" as is normally done for Unclassified shooters. I believe that this new rule change was to specifically address "sandbagging" but if matches (especially major matches) don't check.......well?

Garry N

[solaritx]

Andy,

The rule book as posted is very specific. EVERYONE must reclassify EXCEPT MASTERS.....so as you are a master.......<g>

Either we have rules and we enforce them or we ignore those that we don't like.....not unlike some laws we have <g>

Yea, it's a problem. In fact our club has significantly increased the classifiers we put on. What we are finding is that those shooters that are multi-gun classified ONLY shoot a classifier in the one/ones that they are going to shoot major matches in. As I am frequently the MD for the classifier and I am there, I have reclassified in all divisions. Most again are ONLY reclassified in one or two.

Garry N

[revchuck]

What we are finding is that those shooters that are multi-gun classified ONLY shoot a classifier in the one/ones that they are going to shoot major matches in.

I'm guilty of this myself. I'm classified in all five divisions, but I'm current only in ESR, and soon in SSR since our monthly match is going to be the classifier this month. The bottomfeeders will be gathering dust for the most part this year. FWIW, the USPSA club I belong to is shooting a four classifer match next month, and I'm shooting a round gun for that as well.

A problem many of us have is that we like guns, and like to shoot them, and unless we're a win-or-die competitor, we spread ourselves too thin having fun.