How About Classifying On The Curve, Especially At

[Chills1994]

(Insert Joe Pesci voice here)

Okay, okay, okay.....I just shot my first major match over the weekend. I didn't win anything which doesn't bother me. I'm just happy I didn't place dead last. And no, I am not saying there was any sandbagging going on at this major match.

(End Pesci's voice)

I also shot a classifier recently too. So I have come up with a few ideas to decrease the sandbagging going on in IDPA.

1. If you are going to have a separate classifier stage, like we have now, it needs to be

run straight through. Breaking it up with a lot of time in between lets the sandbaggers

whip out their calculators and pencils to figure out what they need to score on the

subsequent stages to be classified as whatever. Also, if the classifier is being run

straight through, the SO and scorekeeper could keep scores from each stage to

themselves and not tell the shooter. This would eliminate any mental addition too. If it

is broken up, have separate score sheets for each stage, the shooter doesn't get to see

each scoresheet until the end or when the final results are posted to the internet.

Remember the rule book says to shoot a classifer to the best of your ability?

2. Have separate standards stages like IPSC does at matches. If you want to sandbag

the standards at a match, you risk blowing the whole match. This would provide a

greater incentive to do well on the classifier stages. I'm not saying that those scores

need to be sent in to HQ, like IPSC does, but maybe have some prepublished scores on

hand to compare against.

3. Incorporate one stage from the current classifier in your local match. Somewhere it is

published what each classification should get for each stage. Heck, let me suggest

even upping the entry fee 5 bucks and offering a trophy. The real trophy hounds will

be in a quandry: "Do I sandbag the classifier and not get a trophy, or blast through the

classifier like I did the other stages and make it known to everyone what a sandbagger

I am?"

You could do this for three consecutive local matches, and let it be known to everyone

that they could go online and tally up people's scores to figure out how much

sandbagging is going on, where people would actually classify. Of course, the gamers

would catch on to this idea real quick, and would probably not shoot all of the

consecutive matches with a classifier included. Or they could throw a wrench in the

works by changing guns, especially to/from revolvers.

4. Classifying to go to a major match is all well and good, but I think once you have been

to a major match you need to be reclassified. I like statistics and normal curves, so at

a major match let reclassification be based on how you do verus the mean for your

division. Essentially, you won't be competing against just the shooters in your class for

that division, but rather against everyone in your division.

We could make the average final score for your division the cutoff score between

sharpshooter and expert, or sharpshooter and marksman. Then with standard

deviations calculated, you could reclassify shooters depending on how many SD's they

placed from the mean.

The downside to that is that some folks could actually be moved down in class. The

other hiccup in this idea is that the higher up you go in class the fewer shooters there

seems to be. You may not have any expert or master shooters in some divisions,

especially the revolver divisions, since they're a small group already.

Anyway....just some ideas I have been kicking around, especially since the current classification system seems so flawed, IMO.

(Let the sh---storm begin, or did I just open another can-o-worms?)

Chills

[persona non grata]

sounds like a good way too tick offf the gamers and the trophy hounds. wondering what the IDPA membership would drop down tooo then.

John Daniels

Edited March 29, 2006 by persona non grata

[Bones]

I find my match performance generally improves when I shoot more and type less.

Edited March 29, 2006 by Bones

[Ben Stoeger]

Is sandbagging a big problem in IDPA? I can't really say I have seen it goin on in my area.

[revchuck]

I find my match performance generally improves when I shoot more and type less.

This is true for me too, but in the last few months I've had far more access to a computer than to a range.

[Clay1]

There are always going to be some sandbaggers, but most people just shoot against themselves in the first place. I would rather shoot in a higher class and loose than win a lower class. That's just me though.

I prefer the USPSA way of classification, but the IDPA method was by design made to get a classification easily. Just go shoot and have fun.

Rick

[Mayonaise]

How about if you win your class in a sanctioned match, you automatically move up regardless of the number of shooters in that class.

[Clay1]

From the current rule book:

"Classification can also be affected by a shooter’s performance in sanctioned matches. This is based on the number of people in a shooter’s division and classification and the classification above him within that same division.

There are two ways a shooter can be reclassified at a sanctioned match:

1. If total participation in a specific classification within a division is 10 – 19 shooters, the winner of this class will automatically be promoted up to the next higher classification. If 20 – 29 shooters compete in this division/classification, both 1st and 2nd place competitors will be promoted, etc.

2. If the winner of a division and classification has a better score than 10-19 people in his classification AND the classification above his within the same division, the shooter will be promoted to the shooter’s next higher classification. If the 2nd place competitor of a division and classification has a better score than 20 – 29 shooters in his classification AND the classification above within the same division, the 2nd place competitor will be promoted, etc."

Note that the new rule book takes not only the people from your classification but also uses those from classifications above yours. This new twist in the rule book should get shooters to move up in class faster.

Rick

[Crusher]

I don't think sandbagging has ever been an issue (that I have seen) other than 1 S&W Winter Championship, a few years back where "well rounded USPSA shooter" (in all fairness he tanked the classifier just before the match and was classed far below his ability) wound up taking division champion as a "sharpshooter". Instant MASTER after that one.

Now that was HILARIOUS, he took some good natured ribbing as a result and it gave many some fond memories of the match.

[Gun Geek]

(Insert Joe Pesci voice here)

Okay, okay, okay.....I just shot my first major match over the weekend. I didn't win anything which doesn't bother me. I'm just happy I didn't place dead last. And no, I am not saying there was any sandbagging going on at this major match.

(End Pesci's voice)

I also shot a classifier recently too. So I have come up with a few ideas to decrease the sandbagging going on in IDPA.

1. If you are going to have a separate classifier stage, like we have now, it needs to be

run straight through. Breaking it up with a lot of time in between lets the sandbaggers

whip out their calculators and pencils to figure out what they need to score on the

subsequent stages to be classified as whatever. Also, if the classifier is being run

straight through, the SO and scorekeeper could keep scores from each stage to

themselves and not tell the shooter. This would eliminate any mental addition too. If it

is broken up, have separate score sheets for each stage, the shooter doesn't get to see

each scoresheet until the end or when the final results are posted to the internet.

Remember the rule book says to shoot a classifer to the best of your ability?

Never seen this happen, but we shoot'em at a pretty godo pace, so there's not a lot of time to calculate. Also, we keep the scoresheets on the clipboard (shooter doesn't carry them around)

2. Have separate standards stages like IPSC does at matches. If you want to sandbag

the standards at a match, you risk blowing the whole match. This would provide a

greater incentive to do well on the classifier stages. I'm not saying that those scores

need to be sent in to HQ, like IPSC does, but maybe have some prepublished scores on

hand to compare against.

3. Incorporate one stage from the current classifier in your local match. Somewhere it is

published what each classification should get for each stage. Heck, let me suggest

even upping the entry fee 5 bucks and offering a trophy. The real trophy hounds will

be in a quandry: "Do I sandbag the classifier and not get a trophy, or blast through the

classifier like I did the other stages and make it known to everyone what a sandbagger

I am?"

You could do this for three consecutive local matches, and let it be known to everyone

that they could go online and tally up people's scores to figure out how much

sandbagging is going on, where people would actually classify. Of course, the gamers

would catch on to this idea real quick, and would probably not shoot all of the

consecutive matches with a classifier included. Or they could throw a wrench in the

works by changing guns, especially to/from revolvers.

Just too complicated. Requies someone to keep track of all this stuff. If you don't send it to HQ, the MD keeps track, along with all the other stuff...

4. Classifying to go to a major match is all well and good, but I think once you have been

to a major match you need to be reclassified. I like statistics and normal curves, so at

a major match let reclassification be based on how you do verus the mean for your

division. Essentially, you won't be competing against just the shooters in your class for

that division, but rather against everyone in your division.

We could make the average final score for your division the cutoff score between

sharpshooter and expert, or sharpshooter and marksman. Then with standard

deviations calculated, you could reclassify shooters depending on how many SD's they

placed from the mean.

The downside to that is that some folks could actually be moved down in class. The

other hiccup in this idea is that the higher up you go in class the fewer shooters there

seems to be. You may not have any expert or master shooters in some divisions,

especially the revolver divisions, since they're a small group already.

No way! one of the complaints about USPSA is the complex scoring and classification system (hit factors, major/minor) You gotta have a claculator to know how you did on a stage. Statistics and normal curves? 2/3 IDPA shoorters would probably tell you that statistics refer to a woman's body measurements and normal curves are on woman that's not to skinny, not to fat - normal. Heck, powerfactors confuse many people.

Anyway....just some ideas I have been kicking around, especially since the current classification system seems so flawed, IMO.

(Let the sh---storm begin, or did I just open another can-o-worms?)

Chills

Just a little too scientific and rigorous to fly in the real world. Remember those of us posting here are a self-selected group of techies.

I think Sir Winston had it right (referring to Democracy) - something like: it is the worst system possible, except when compared with the others.

[COF]

I was reading this dissertation with interest until that crack about revolver shooters

Some shooters are just jealous of us folks who can put down their round gun and shoot a bottom feeder

From an MD viewpoint, we have enough to do already and sending it to HQ would just make it complicated. While I don't think the classifier is a true test of skills (because you get mulligans if you screw up), it provides a baseline to start. What screws up the bell curve are the folks who practice the classifier over and over, then get classified way above their true abilities.

If someone is really sandbagging, so they can go to a big match and win a trophy, they're going to get moved up, so it only works for a short time anyway. Some folks get away with it longer than others but it catches up to them. The rulebook also provides an option for the match director to require a shooter to shoot the classifier if it appears the shooter isn't classified to his abilities. Will some folks attempt to tank the classifier if that happens? Possibly, but I think peer pressure will also play a part in regulating this.

Just the view from my fence post

Jerry

[Bones]

"I was reading this dissertation with interest until that crack about revolver shooters"

Me too Jerry.

It was truly enlightening.

Craig

[Chills1994]

At this major match, it looked like the "staticians" were already using some spread sheet program like Excel (or maybe even SPSS) to keep track of the scores. Consequently, calculating averages and SD's for each division wouldn't require that much more work. This would only be at major matches. At the end of the match, it would be easy to post a list of the averages for each division alongside a list of those shooters who move up (or down in classification).

Granted the hardcore sandbaggers do get moved up, but only after they have won a trophy for their division and class and only IF they have beat enough shooters in the class(es) above them.

With the method I'm proposing here, maybe the top five shooters in SSP SS get bumped up to EX, depending on how they compare against the mean.

Jerry, no slams intended against revolver shooters. The one classifier stage at 3 consecutive local matches proposal would work best for folks who shot the same gun, and division, for all three matches. It makes it easier to add their scores up after the 3rd match and see if they are sandbagging.

If they switch from revolver to auto or vice versa in any of those 3 matches, it becomes more like apples to oranges kind of thing.

(Now, if someone could shoot auto and revolver equally well both right and left handed, that would be something. LOL)

No, I am NOT suggesting sending any classification scores to HQ. Just post the scores from your local matches to the internet like you normally would. Those people interested in finding out who the true sandbaggers are can surf the website and total up the classifier stage scores from those 3 consecutive local matches. Then they can rib accordingly.

Now if IDPA had other published standards stages like IPSC does and published corresponding scores for MA, EX, SS, and MM that might be worthwhile. Definitely no need to send anything to HQ then.

I'm not all that up on IPSC's scoring system. It sounds rather complicated. I like IDPA's way of converting everything to time. It's simple and it works.

Granted, most people on this forum would be shooting against themselves at a major match. If their final scores just so happen to earn them a trophy, so be it. I'm saying that the posters on this forum are not necessarily truly representative of IDPA/IPSC as a whole.

It only takes a few sandbaggers at the local level to go to a major match to compete against a few other sandbaggers who ruin it for the folks who truly shot the classifier to the best of their ability to earn MM or SS.

I'll get around to crunching some numbers from some major matches and see if my reclassifying around the mean idea would actually pan out.

Like I said before, just some ideas I've been kicking around.

[f250sd]

I think the classifier is alright the way it is. I think most of the sandbagging in IDPA comes from shooters winning a match, getting bumped up in one division, then switching divisions, and going back down in classification. To avoid this, I feel if you make say master in SSP, your a Master in ESP & CDP also. What ever your classification in SSR, carries over to ESR. This would avoid a shooter from winning, lets say, the nationals one year, 1st s.s. SSP, next year 1st s.s. ESP, the next year, 1st s.s. CDP, all with his/her Glock 21.

ONE classification for autos

ONE classification for rev's

The way IDPA equipment rules are, and the way IDPA stages are set up and shot, I just don't see the need to have different classes in all the div's.

[revchuck]

ONE classification for autos

ONE classification for rev's

The way IDPA equipment rules are, and the way IDPA stages are set up and shot, I just don't see the need to have different classes in all the div's.

Dang, this is scary. I agree with this!

[Crusher]

It's normally a plaque match, no money on the table (I think there should be, but thats me), if someone (regardless of their classification) is besting you PRACTICE MORE and spank them next match.

IDPA from it's own rulebook:

One of the unique facets of this sport is that it is geared toward the new or average shooter, yet is fun, challenging and rewarding for the

experienced shooter.

New or average and along comes a SHARK...........chomp chomp chomp.

or worse:

Along comes a SHARK in GOLDFISH ATTIRE.........stealth chomp chomp chomp.

[Ted Murphy]

At this major match, it looked like the "staticians" were already using some spread sheet program like Excel (or maybe even SPSS) to keep track of the scores. Consequently, calculating averages and SD's for each division wouldn't require that much more work. This would only be at major matches. At the end of the match, it would be easy to post a list of the averages for each division alongside a list of those shooters who move up (or down in classification).

I love it when people want to stack "just one more duty" to the list of things the poor volunteers have to do at a match.

I'm going to have to give this idea the raspberry. Sorry.

Ted

[Crusher]

...who ruin it...

I forgot to ask, ruin what exactly?

[Bones]

Don't be so harsh Ted.

That's one whole match worth of experience being drawn upon for those musings.

Perhaps a MA finishing first in a MM class brings honor somewhere. I don't live there so I cannot comment.

Craig

Edited March 30, 2006 by Bones

[andrewcolglazier]

How about if you win your class in a sanctioned match, you automatically move up regardless of the number of shooters in that class.

Move up just because you showed up?? Noooo, not a good idea.

Andy C.

[andrewcolglazier]

I think the classifier is alright the way it is. I think most of the sandbagging in IDPA comes from shooters winning a match, getting bumped up in one division, then switching divisions, and going back down in classification. To avoid this, I feel if you make say master in SSP, your a Master in ESP & CDP also. What ever your classification in SSR, carries over to ESR. This would avoid a shooter from winning, lets say, the nationals one year, 1st s.s. SSP, next year 1st s.s. ESP, the next year, 1st s.s. CDP, all with his/her Glock 21.

ONE classification for autos

ONE classification for rev's

The way IDPA equipment rules are, and the way IDPA stages are set up and shot, I just don't see the need to have different classes in all the div's.

Nope, I don't agree with this. The different classes truly call for different techniques. And it makes no sense to classify someone in a class/division that they have never shot, calling for handguns they may not even own.

Nossir, I agree with the various classes/divisions, I have no problem with them. Adds variety..

Andy C.

Personally I think people spend waaaaayyyy too much time worrying about what they other guy is doing....

Pay your match fee, shoot the match, see where it shakes out. If you've done your homework, you'll be happy with your performance, whether you win or not.....

Andy C.

[COF]

How about if you win your class in a sanctioned match, you automatically move up regardless of the number of shooters in that class.

I'd say no to this because "even a blind squirrel gets a nut once in a while" There's a difference in beating one or two other folks in a class and beating ten or more. The same person may win in both instances but, it would seem to me beating ten folks is a better indicator of skill level then beating one or two.

Jerry

[f250sd]

The different classes truly call for different techniques

Hows that? I don't understand how someone can be a master class ESP shooter, but be a Sharpshooter class SSP? Or CDP expert, but ESP Marksman? Sometimes with the same gun.... To me, in IDPA a Master shooter is a Master shooter, no matter what div they are shooting in that day. The old "its the indian, not the arrow" thing. I think its just too common to see someone when their class at a sactioned match and get bumped up a class, just to see them at the next major match shooting a lower class in different div.

And yes I'm a SSP Master, just so you guys don't think I have a personal stake in people "bumping down." I just think its wrong. people should shoot in their highest class. I guess I could make the same argument for some of the USPSA div. also, but thats a different sub-forum.

[Clay1]

I think that USPSA has it right in that you can only be ONE class below your highest rated classification. So if you are a Master class shooter in SSP and you start revolver the lowest that you can be classified would be Expert. There are some differences between the platforms and this takes into account that fact. Your splits are different with different equipment, but you should never see a Master class ESP shooter who is competing as a Marksman in another class.

Rick

[andrewcolglazier]

I disagree...

Usually the difference is tha tthe shooter is classed higher in CDP or SSP than ESP or revolver, but there are lots of reasons why you would see differences in classification.

I shoot different guns in different divisions... G17 in SSP, G34 or CZ75SA 9mm in ESP, Glock 21 in CDP, 3" .357 in SSR, 4" moongun in ESR. I have much more time in SSP than the other divisions, I'm learning the CZSA but haven't the knack for SA yet, the 21 is larger than the 17, and the round count is different, I haven't ever shot my moongun for classification since the division break, and have you ever shot a 3" gun with fixed sights at 20 yards???

Gimme a break!

Lumping someone who is a master into master or even expert in all divisions is making some pretty hefty assumptions! I assume that folks who want to do that haven't tried shooting for score in all five divisions....

Andy C.