Classifer Cm 99-42

[Bwana Six-Gun]

I need some opinions here. During our monthly match we were shooting this clasifier and the stage procedure says"Upon start signal, from Box A, engage only PP1, PP2, T1, and T2 from left side of the barricade, make a mandatory reload, and from Box A, engage only PP3, PP4, T3, and T4 from the right side of the barricade. Competitor may begin on either side of the barricade." Scoring instructions say one procedural for each shot fired with out the mandatory reload.

Shooter A gets the start signal and engages the two paper and two steel from the right side of the barricade at the start. Misses one steel and reloads and shoots again to knock it down. (He is shooting a revolver.) He then shifts to the left side and engages the other targets without making another reload. My call was one procedure for each of the shots fired on the left, before he reloaded again. He argued that he had made the mandatory reload when he had to re-engage the steel and therefore had met the stage requirements. I discussed it with two other ROs in the squad and since he had gained no competitive advantage he was not assessed the procedurals.

My interpretation was that the reload had to be made between arrays. I have e-mailed NROI to get an official interpretation but I think the intent was reload between arrays.

Can anyone help me out here?

Thanks.

[Chuck Anderson]

I need some opinions here. During our monthly match we were shooting this clasifier and the stage procedure says"Upon start signal, from Box A, engage only PP1, PP2, T1, and T2 from left side of the barricade, make a mandatory reload, and from Box A, engage only PP3, PP4, T3, and T4 from the right side of the barricade. Competitor may begin on either side of the barricade." Scoring instructions say one procedural for each shot fired with out the mandatory reload.

Shooter A gets the start signal and engages the two paper and two steel from the right side of the barricade at the start. Misses one steel and reloads and shoots again to knock it down. (He is shooting a revolver.) He then shifts to the left side and engages the other targets without making another reload. My call was one procedure for each of the shots fired on the left, before he reloaded again. He argued that he had made the mandatory reload when he had to re-engage the steel and therefore had met the stage requirements. I discussed it with two other ROs in the squad and since he had gained no competitive advantage he was not assessed the procedurals.

My interpretation was that the reload had to be made between arrays. I have e-mailed NROI to get an official interpretation but I think the intent was reload between arrays.

Can anyone help me out here?

Thanks.

I would say that he's okay. The COF just specifies that a mandatory reload be made, it doesn't specify each time switching sides. For example, take a look at 99-16. That one specifies that a reload be made when switching sides of the barricade.

[ima45dv8]

I'd say he satisfied the course requirements with his reload to reengage the steel he missed, so no penalty since it was done before transitioning sides of the barricade.

[AzShooter]

I'd say he has the penalty.

The instructions stated to complete one side of the barricade and then perform a mandatory reload, then complete the other side. Any revolver shooter should catch this as you did.

Also, if he only reloaded once how did he complete the stage without a second reload from the other side. Did he fire a 7th shot? That puts him in Open.

[ima45dv8]

I'd say he has the penalty.

The instructions stated to complete one side of the barricade and then perform a mandatory reload, then complete the other side. Any revolver shooter should catch this as you did.

Also, if he only reloaded once how did he complete the stage without a second reload from the other side. Did he fire a 7th shot? That puts him in Open.

Well, to be fair, it doesn't exactly say "Complete". It says "Engage", which he did (although he did miss, as you rightfully pointed out). So I think by having made the reload before he transitioned, he would have satisfied the CoF requirements, yes?

*I was wondering about that 7th shot, too.

[Bigbadaboom]

45dv8 would seem to be correct if the discription didn't state "Make a mandatory reload, and from box "A", engage only PP3, PP4, T3, and T4". With the word "only" this means that after the mandatory reload he can only engage said targets. If he engaged any other targets after the mandatory reload then he gets 1 procedural per shot untill he makes a reload and only engages the proper array.

Edited March 6, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[ima45dv8]

Just so we're all on the same page, here's the stage description:

"Upon start signal, from Box A, engage only PP1, PP2, T1, and T2 from left side of barricade, make a mandatory reload, and from Box A, engage only PP3, PP4, T3, and T4 from the right side of barricade. Competitor may begin on either side of the barricade."

I read that as no penalty since he engaged all of the correct targets only from the side(s) specified, and then did in fact perform a reload before changing sides of the barricade and engaging the remaining array.

Considering the extra/static reload in the shooter's immediate future, I guess it doesn't pay to miss with one of those spinning guns.

[Bwana Six-Gun]

There was no 7th shot, he was using a true six-shooter, and like I said he gained no competitive advantage, since he did in fact have to make still another reload to finish the left side. My concern is for shooters in other divisions. Suppose he is shooting Production or L-10 and has say 8 round magazines. He shoots dry on the first side, reloads and gets his last steel hit with the first shot. He still has 7 rounds left that he could engage the other side with and then he does gain a small advantage.

I haven't heard from John Amidon or NROI yet, but I fell like if they want to be sure that things are clear they should either reword the COF instructions or throw that classifier out the window.

[ima45dv8]

John, I was being a bit tounge-in-cheek about the 7th shot. I think AZS was too.

In your example, I'm not seeing where he would gain an advantage since this one is scored Comstock (but I sometimes miss the obvious, at least according to my ex-wives ) . I think if he was shooting Production or Lim10 with 8-round magazines he would be at a disadvantage before the first shot. If he made it worse by arriving at the 2nd array with 7 rounds instead of 11 it could be very bad if he starts missing.

Let us know what you hear from John.

...Mark

Edited March 7, 2006 by ima45dv8

[Nik Habicht]

As long as all targets on one side are engaged with at least one round before the shooter performs the mandatory reload, all reloading requirements of the stage description are met. The stage description says nothing about a mandatory reload when switching sides; it only stipulates one mandatory reload after engaging (not hitting or knocking down) one array of targets around a specific side of the barricade.

The only ways I see off the top of my head, to earn procedurals on this stage would be shooting an array from the wrong side of the barricade, foot faulting, or not fully engaging an array before making the mandatory reload.....

[omnia1911]

I think he satisfied the stage requirements and should not be penalized. He did engage the first steel, but he missed. The stage description did not say that the steel had to fall before switching sides. How would you feel about his actions if he had switched sides after his first reload, left the first steel, took a miss penalty, then got all his hits on the other array without any additional reloads. Would you also give him per shot penalties for not performing the mandatory reload when you thought he should (after the first steel falls)?

Edited March 7, 2006 by omnia1911

[Bwana Six-Gun]

I think he satisfied the stage requirements and should not be penalized. He did engage the first steel, but he missed. The stage description did not say that the steel had to fall before switching sides. How would you feel about his actions if he had switched sides after his first reload, left the first steel, took a miss penalty, then got all his hits on the other array without any additional reloads. Would you also give him per shot penalties for not performing the mandatory reload when you thought he should (after the first steel falls)?

I think you misunderstand my point. I'm not looking to penalize anyone. Had the shooter fired his six shots and left a steel standing and reloaded to engage the other targets and steel on the left side I would have said nothing. It's his choice to take a miss penalty.

I just want to know what the right call is in this situation. If you reload and re-engage the same array of targets, does that meet the COF requirements or should you have to reload again when you change arrays? I see no competitive advantage, but we fall into the situation of what is the intent of the stage. I'm all for shoot the stage the way it is written, but this leaves room for a lot of interpretation as the replies here seem to indicate.

[ima45dv8]

Bwana John, if I've learned anything it's to not make calls based on what I might think was the intent of a stage. That's doubly true for classifiers. And I understand your desire to just make the right call -- that's mine too, every time I pick up a timer.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Your question: "If you reload and re-engage the same array of targets, does that meet the COF requirements or should you have to reload again when you change arrays?'

Answer: It does satisfy the requirements of this CoF. You don't have to reload again when changing arrays if it isn't specified in the Written Stage Briefing.

...Mark

(P.S. - I hope you don't feel like folks are ganging up on you. We just like a good rules question and there hasn't been one in a few days ).

Edited March 7, 2006 by ima45dv8

[Bwana Six-Gun]

Bwana John, if I've learned anything it's to not make calls based on what I might think was the intent of a stage. That's doubly true for classifiers. And I understand your desire to just make the right call -- that's mine too, every time I pick up a timer.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Your question: "If you reload and re-engage the same array of targets, does that meet the COF requirements or should you have to reload again when you change arrays?'

Answer: It does satisfy the requirements of this CoF. You don't have to reload again when changing arrays if it isn't specified in the Written Stage Briefing.

...Mark

(P.S. - I hope you don't feel like folks are ganging up on you. We just like a good rules question and there hasn't been one in a few days ).

Gang up all you want. (I'm used to it being a revolver shooter surrounded by bottem feeders at the local matches.) I just want to know the right answer and I can see that there are a lot of opinions about this. Do you think the stage should be reworded, if nothing else just to clarify it?

[ima45dv8]

Do you think the stage should be reworded, if nothing else just to clarify it?

Honestly, no. I think it's clear as written. I've had to make similar calls many times and the overriding factor here is that he complied with the stage briefing as written. If I were CRO on this stage and one of my guys gave a penalty based on the events as described, I couldn't support it.

[omnia1911]

45dv8 would seem to be correct if the discription didn't state "Make a mandatory reload, and from box "A", engage only PP3, PP4, T3, and T4". With the word "only" this means that after the mandatory reload he can only engage said targets. If he engaged any other targets after the mandatory reload then he gets 1 procedural per shot untill he makes a reload and only engages the proper array.

You left off an important part of the sentence, "from the right/left side of the barricade". "Only" refers to which side of the barricade certain targets can "only" be engaged from. I presume this was a comstock stage, which means you can engage or re-engage the targets in any order you want and as many times as you want, as long as they are shot from the correct side of the barricade. Also, the stage description says that the shooter can begin with either array.

I guess the question in the minds of some may be whether the reload the shooter in question made was a mandatory one, according to the stage description, or a self imposed one due to a miss. I think they are the same action, based on how this particular shooter handled his target engagement.

Edited March 7, 2006 by omnia1911

[Bigbadaboom]

You left off an important part of the sentence, "from the right/left side of the barricade". "Only" refers to which side of the barricade certain targets can "only" be engaged from. I presume this was a comstock stage, which means you can engage or re-engage the targets in any order you want and as many times as you want, as long as they are shot from the correct side of the barricade. Also, the stage description says that the shooter can begin with either array.

I guess the question in the minds of some may be whether the reload the shooter in question made was a mandatory one, according to the stage description, or a self imposed one due to a miss. I think they are the same action, based on how this particular shooter handled his target engagement.

I believe that Only applies to the targets which may be engaged after the mandatory reload "and" which side of the barracade those targets may be engaged from. I could be wrong here but we'll see when John answers the question.

Edited March 7, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[omnia1911]

You left off an important part of the sentence, "from the right/left side of the barricade". "Only" refers to which side of the barricade certain targets can "only" be engaged from. I presume this was a comstock stage, which means you can engage or re-engage the targets in any order you want and as many times as you want, as long as they are shot from the correct side of the barricade. Also, the stage description says that the shooter can begin with either array.

I guess the question in the minds of some may be whether the reload the shooter in question made was a mandatory one, according to the stage description, or a self imposed one due to a miss. I think they are the same action, based on how this particular shooter handled his target engagement.

I believe that Only applies to the targets which may be engaged after the mandatory reload "and" which side of the barracade those targets may be engaged from. I could be wrong here but we'll see when John answers the question.

It is a comstock stage. You can't make such restrictions.

[mactiger]

I think that in this classifier, "only" means which targets can be shot at from the specified side of the barricade, and that a reload is a reload. Therefore, given the course description (which, IMO, doesn't need to be re-written), the competitor satisfied the requirements of the course of fire and should not be penalized.

Troy

[Carmoney]

I happen to agree with the NO PENALTY camp here.

But the very fact that there are experienced shooters and ROs who arrive at differing interpretations of the stage description tells me that the language is ambiguous. By definition. These need to be crystal clear. If anybody (other than a raw beginner) is on here asking how these should be interpeted, the descriptions should be re-written and re-written again until everybody understands them and applies them consistently.

Or so it seems to me.

[cliffwalsh]

I think it is written pretty clear. The ONLY refers to the side of the barricade the targets may be shot from. The written description says engage one set of targets from one side, reload, then engage the other set of targets from the other side. The shooter did that. What I see a lot at matches are people reading more than what is written.

[richardschennberg]

Courses of fire that require an additional reload to reengage missed target or steel that failed to fall should say so explicitly. Classifiers probably omit piling on extra penalties or time because they are supposed to measure a shooter's ability. IMHCROO (in my humble CRO opinion),

1. Never give a penalty when there is doubt. I'm not suggesting any freebees, but make sure the shooter really violated the course description before you award penalties;

2. Don't go out of your way to lower a shooter's classification scores. It's unfair to the shooter this match, and unfair to his competitors in the future if he fails to move up in class.

[Bwana Six-Gun]

Ok Guys, Here is what I got from John Amidon.

"The stage procedure states that he must engage one side, do a reload and engage the other side, he did not do it that way, so under, 10.1, he would get at least one procedure, now, the RO would have to determine if an advantage was gained, per 10.2.2, in this case, I would have to say no, as he did do the reload, just not when he was suppose to, then he did another reload on top of that. The perfect way would have been to do the reload and go to the next array, after completing that array, he could have done another reload and went back and cover the miss on the first array."

Now having gotten this, I am no better off than before. If the first reload counted as the mandatory reload, where is the penalty? If it did not count as the mandatory reload, then why not one procedure for each shot fired?

I still think this is a badly written stage description for a classifier.

I hope I never have to RO this classifier again.

[driver8M3]

But the very fact that there are experienced shooters and ROs who arrive at differing interpretations of the stage description tells me that the language is ambiguous. By definition.

agreed. and now we seem to even have 2 very experienced CROs with differing opinions!

[omnia1911]

Ok Guys, Here is what I got from John Amidon.

"The stage procedure states that he must engage one side, do a reload and engage the other side, he did not do it that way, so under, 10.1, he would get at least one procedure, now, the RO would have to determine if an advantage was gained, per 10.2.2, in this case, I would have to say no, as he did do the reload, just not when he was suppose to, then he did another reload on top of that. The perfect way would have been to do the reload and go to the next array, after completing that array, he could have done another reload and went back and cover the miss on the first array."

Unbelievable!!!

Take another look Mr. Amidon. The course description says engage, not hit, not knock down, not complete. The shooter did engage (not hit, not knock down) every target in the first array before making his mandatory reload and switching sides. The shooter, in this case, happen to make up a miss in the first array before switching sides; perfectly legal in a comstock stage.

What if the shooter had knocked down all the steel and had all his hits on the paper in the first array, but re-engaged one of the paper targets after his mandatory reload to improve on a D hit before switching sides. Would you still want to penalize him?

10.2.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at any scoring target with at least

one round will incur 1 procedural penalty per target, plus the

applicable number of misses, except where the provisions of

Rules 9.2.4.5 or 9.9.2 apply.

The FTE rule above states that a target has been engaged if it has been shot at; not hit, not knocked down, not completed (whatever that means).

Edited March 15, 2006 by omnia1911