Going Faster...should I? Can I?

[SteveZ]

Ok...I've got a question for all of you. Since many of you have "seen the elephant"...I figure many of you have have a good insight into this. I'm wondering, after shooting thousands of rounds....if one's mind settles into a certain shot cadence and if its possible (or a good idea) to try and speed that up.

Here are a couple data points. 1) When I track the number of points I get on a stage, I'm typically getting 90-95% of points.

2) at WSSSC Mesa, we had a 16 round speed shoot (shoot 8 reload shoot 8). My time was 1 second off of TGO's. I figure his draw and reload probably accounted for that 1 second difference (he's using a kydex holster, I'm using leather. My right thumb was broken and forced me to initiate reloads using my left hand...Rob was reloading normal) which means my shot cadence was probably pretty close to his.

3) All of my shooting, I do what I call a comfortable and repeatable pace. No shoot and hope but more shooting and calling the shots.

4) On the classifier today (both sides now 99-7), I shot it at what I would call a repeatable pace. On the second round of the first string, I tracked a shot into the black hard cover and blew the run...the next 2 strings went fine. After getting home and checking my "would be" score (if I left that round on the target) my run would have been 94% nationally.

So here's what I'm wondering...should I try and decrease my split times. Will my mind allow me to try and decrease my split times...while still allowing me to shoot at what I call a "repeatable" pace and not "hoping" for hits? I realize that if my splits are were .05 faster...over a 20 round course...that's a second! That could be the difference between a stage win and 2nd place.

So do I turn it up a notch? Can I turn it up a notch or is my mind controlling the pace and won't change it. If I'm getting 90-95% of the points now...will trying to go faster still produce 90-95% of the points or will my accuracy fall off.

And if it is possible to go faster....how do you go about doing that and get your mind to shift into the next gear and yet feel comfortable?

[Jake Di Vita]

It is always possible to go faster.

The only way you can go faster is you need to turn up the speed of your vision. That or, accept less feed back from your sights before you shoot.

And remember, that the vast majority of your speed is NOT in your shooting.

[PaulW]

Well said Jake as I agree totally.

[dirtypool40]

Mods, this one has been answered, save the band width.

Edited February 27, 2006 by dirtypool40

[PaulW]

Easy Cranky.......Wake up on the wrong side of the bed, thats impossible for you!! LOL

[dirtypool40]

Who's cranky? He asked a question and you guys answered it. Bam Done. Next problem.

And yes, it was a nice wake up thank you

And if it is possible to go faster....how do you go about doing that and get your mind to shift into the next gear and yet feel comfortable?

Seriously, I would "try on" the next gear. That's part of the "see saw" of IPSC improvement. Go faster, bring the points and feedback back up to par, go faster, gain control.

Run like a raped ape for a few matches or practice sessions, you have no fear, just let the sights graze the A-zone and rip away. Focus on crisp aggressive movement, zippy gun handling and a feeling of being light and electric.

OK, now check the points. Did you dip below 90%? Well then push harder. What are you seeing at that speed?

I'd say go until you fall below 90% of the points (A/C) and then try to gather them back up to 95% and keep that new speed.

It may not make sense, but that's how it seemed to work for me. I can remember when a 6.50 El Prez was pretty scary and left me breathless. Now a decent, cold run is almost 2 full seconds faster. But when I want to "scare myself" I have to let things go a little and see what sub 4 looks like.

You simply build up a tolerance and capacity. Stretch to improve it, relax a little to compete smoothly.

I lost myself in there somewhere....Did that make ANY sense?

[Sean Gaines]

Its funny but in practice when I try to speed up. I am usually shoot about the same time, maybe just a little faster (not really that much difference) then when I shoot at my own pace. Maybe I am thinking go fast, and I get tense and it actually slows me down. And latter in the practice session when I am more relaxed, the speed starts to come. But I am an advocate of always pushing yourself to the limit especially in practice, and it should carry over to your matches.

I think one of the best ways to speed up, is to speed up your transitions, and not really so much your split times. Try cutting a tenth off your transitions, then you will see some blazing times. I think alot of us see people shooting fast and think thats the way to speed up. But speeding up the time between targets is where you can gain alot of ground.

Pk

[AlamoShooter]

Who's cranky? He asked a question and you guys answered it. Bam Done. Next problem.

You simply build up a tolerance and capacity. Stretch to improve it, relax a little to compete smoothly.

I lost myself in there somewhere....Did that make ANY sense?

I don't know much but DirtyPool is right on. If you dont 'Stretch' you will never know. I have ben trying the past 18 months just what your thoughts were. I did not think it would be that hard, many problems pop up from equipment to mind and body. One big problem is the 'very good advice' from friends that think your shooting has gone to crap to "Slow Down'! Just trying to jump out of an old comfortable Rut can be the bigest part of the challenge. Be ready for five probelms to crop up 'when' and if you try to break out and = ( Go Faster) = lots more problems than just speed.

Reaching for a higher goal ...I hope it is worth it... Not reaching to stay in the Comfort area. I dont want that. just be ready for the Pain part of the gain.

It mostly just hurts your pride

Jamie F.

[SteveZ]

Thanks guys for the input. I guess I'm wondering, from a mental standpoint, if ones mind develops a shot cadence that it will automatically "engage" and won't let you go faster. Since almost all shooting comes from the subconscious...trying to get it to go faster maybe a bit of a trick.

The question above is not aimed at field courses where there are many areas to cut time...but speed shoots. In yesterdays match one of the new up and coming speedy shooters would watch my run and then pushed it a little harder and would beat me by a few tenths of a second. I'm not sure how much "in control" he was but it got me to thinking....can I decrease my splits (or transitions) and get my speed up...or is my mind going to impose it's own "regulated" speed. And if ones mind does impose a regulated speed...how can you force it to adopt a new speed. I guess the answer is to just push it and then let the subconscious learn to how to deal with it.

One step back...two steps forward.

[davidball]

It may not make sense, but that's how it seemed to work for me.

Like most learning, I think this is a subjective process. I know of others for whom the "push the speed and make the points come back to you" method has worked great. For me, focus on improved technique ( "speed up your vision", etc.) produces better results. When I push the speed, everything just disintegrates. That's why the forum is so helpful - different viewpoints, different methods.

[Bigbadaboom]

I've decided that I'm going to let my speed dictate my training. I'm fairly fast naturally and when I was introduced to USPSA the friend that got me started told me that I needed to "slow down" and get my hits. I trained and practiced this way for 6 years and improvement came to a screeching hault and I seemed to be stuck in neutral. I began doing research and reading and talking and watching others and I decided that slowing myself down has trained me to "slow myself down". It hasn't trained me to get "A" hits faster it has trained me to slow down to get them. That doesn't work for me. I've been told "Concentrate on getting points and the speed will come naturally". That doesn't work for me. I've decided that I'm going to train myself to see "at my speed". I'm not going to slow myself down to do anything. I'm going to train myself to see at my natural speed. I'm going to drive the gun fast and learn how to get my points at speed. I compare it to driving a race car; you have to learn what it takes to corner at speed. You don't start out driving slow and let the speed catch up to your cornering skills, you adjust your cornering skills to driving fast.

I hope this makes sense. I realize that everyone has different primary "Skill sets", some speed, some accuracy etc. etc. and that this may not work for everyone but I need to find what works for me and sense I've begun training with this mind-set I've started improving after several years of being stagnant.

Edited February 27, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[Loves2Shoot]

In yesterdays match one of the new up and coming speedy shooters would watch my run and then pushed it a little harder and would beat me by a few tenths of a second. I'm not sure how much "in control" he was but it got me to thinking....can I decrease my splits (or transitions) and get my speed up...or is my mind going to impose it's own "regulated" speed. And if ones mind does impose a regulated speed...how can you force it to adopt a new speed.

If you remove everything from your brain except seeing the shots, what you see will determine how fast YOU can go on each shot. This has produced the FASTEST split times I've ever had, and they actually hit the targets where I knew they would. If you focus on speed, well we know where that leads...

[Jake Di Vita]

Try shooting Open for half the season if you have the capability. The dot will show you how fast you COULD be going.

[SteveZ]

If you focus on speed, well we know where that leads...

So somehow I need to figure a way to cut the wires to speed regulator in the car....without cutting the wires to the cars fuel pump.....lets see...is it the red one or the black one?

[Loves2Shoot]

yep

I believe this is the single biggest hurddle to overcome for good shooters.

Realizing speed is a byproduct of doing thing right, and without hesitation, and not a product of our desire.

Trusting yourself when you see how fast everyone else looks isn't as easy as it sounds, but you already knew that.

[vincent]

Taking a cue from Jake's super post about accepting less feedback from your sights, have you really went out to the range and figured out what is the minimum amount of sight information needed to repeatedly make an "A" hit at a given distance? You need to take into account NPA and index and also shoot from positions that disturb these so you can see the difference. I've found that when you really prove to yourself that you can make good hits with less sight information you open the door to faster shooting.

You often hear "see what you need to see" in reference to visual patience, but it is just as important from the minimalist aspect of "see only what you need to see". If you are seeing much more then you're wasting time.

Edited February 27, 2006 by vincent

[Singlestack]

This so reminds me of my sig line.

[short_round]

I guess I'm wondering, from a mental standpoint, if ones mind develops a shot cadence that it will automatically "engage" and won't let you go faster.

In short ... yes. However, I think it's important to separate the physical limit of speed with "shot cadence". The physical limit "won't let you go faster," but the proper shot cadence determines how fast you should go.

It's like playing music. To complete a piece faster you don't skip notes, you play each note with a faster tempo. The gun is like a drum. It's an instrument that plays a single note. If you can't hear and feel the way it should play through a particular array or stage it will be more difficult to establish a crisp clean flow. Vision is critically important, but it's not the only sense we have.

It's also important not to get trapped into a shot cadence in case adjustments need to be made during the shooting. Proper shot cadence isn't about programming yourself to be a robot. It's about knowing the timing of every shot and playing them out to the beat of your own drum.

[Ron Ankeny]

Hi Steve:

Have you ever shot an array just as fast as you can physically manipulate the pistol and just let your eyes go along for the ride? It's a worthwhile exercise. Then reverse the process by leading everything with your eyes and see if your hands can physically keep up. It's a real eye opener, no pun intended.

[Flexmoney]

I confused.

You said your shooting was as fast as TGO's? That your reload and draw is likely what made the difference in the time?

If so, why are we talking about splits? I'm not sure where to find 0.05 seconds per shot...if you are shooting along with TGO?

Regardless...

I think you might explore what is the controlling factor of your shooting now. If the control is "cadence", then I'd certainly look to break out of that. If your vision/awareness/senses are currently controlling your shooting, then you might explore the levels of acceptability that you are choosing...from the feedback that you are getting from your senses.

If a shooter is doing all they can and still comes up short, then it is often a matter of less than optimal technique.

Lots of good posts in this thread.

[SteveZ]

I confused.

You said your shooting was as fast as TGO's? That your reload and draw is likely what made the difference in the time?

If so, why are we talking about splits? I'm not sure where to find 0.05 seconds per shot...if you are shooting along with TGO?

based on this one speed shoot stage at the WSSSC match in Mesa a few weeks ago...yeah, I was pretty close to him (stage 11, we had the same points....I shot in the opposite direction he did)...and am guessing the difference was in the reload/draw times.

...but I want to see if I can go faster. I've seen shooters shoot faster than myself...the question is...are they in control or not. I think the most important thing I can take away from all of this discussion is "see ONLY what you need to see". It could be that I'm trying to see too much of the front sight in the scoring zone. I'm going to have to play around with some target arrays and see what I can get away with....and still maintain control.

I'm shooting L10...so I don't have many extra rounds to throw down range like some of the higher capacity guys do!

[TDean]

I'm shooting L10...so I don't have many extra rounds to throw down range like some of the higher capacity guys do!

You've got plenty of rds, they're right there on your belt.

The secret to Lim-10 is not being afraid of capacity. Shoot like a demon possesed!...just accurately.