chuckw Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 (edited) As for the shooter that yelled out... Was he right? If so, then I won't give a penalty. He wasn't trying to thwart a competitors run, he was trying to help. Was he wrong? Well then, did his squad start it wrong? Do they all need to reshoot? Does the MD need to change something in the walk through? Right or wrong on the start position I think this misses the point - unless it's a matter of life or death nobody has a right to yell out stuff except the RO and that's supported by the rules not to mention common sense. What if a guy didn't know a popper he shot didn't fall so his wife yells out STOP to get him a reshoot? Edited January 31, 2006 by chuckw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I had a similar experience at a local match last fall. I was RO'ing and maybe 7 or 8 seconds into the shooters run he stops and looks at me and asks if I told him to stop. I quickly told him, "no", where he proceded to continue shooting. I could tell he was a little flustered and he did not do very well on the rest of the stage. After unloading and showing clear I call the time to the scorekeeper and start scoring his run when he again asks me if I had told him to stop because he heard something that sounded like someone saying "stop", but not very loudly. I told him I also heard this from somewhere in the crowd of two squads that were waiting to shoot this stage. It could have been "stop" or it could have been something else. Either way, it was from someone in the crowd, not very loud, and probably just some shooters BS'n. Unfortunately, it cost the shooter at least two seconds and ended up with a poor score for the stage. I told him that if I would like to give a reshoot but really can't and that if I had told him to stop, he would most definately have heard me. He was not a brand new shooter but was new at the beggining of the year if I recall correctly. He was disapointed, but said he understands. Was I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 (edited) I had a similar experience at a local match last fall. I was RO'ing and maybe 7 or 8 seconds into the shooters run he stops and looks at me and asks if I told him to stop. I quickly told him, "no", where he proceded to continue shooting. I could tell he was a little flustered and he did not do very well on the rest of the stage. After unloading and showing clear I call the time to the scorekeeper and start scoring his run when he again asks me if I had told him to stop because he heard something that sounded like someone saying "stop", but not very loudly. I told him I also heard this from somewhere in the crowd of two squads that were waiting to shoot this stage. It could have been "stop" or it could have been something else. Either way, it was from someone in the crowd, not very loud, and probably just some shooters BS'n. Unfortunately, it cost the shooter at least two seconds and ended up with a poor score for the stage. I told him that if I would like to give a reshoot but really can't and that if I had told him to stop, he would most definately have heard me. He was not a brand new shooter but was new at the beggining of the year if I recall correctly. He was disapointed, but said he understands. Was I wrong? If I heard the gallery make the noises that caused the shooter to interrupt their run, I would offer them a reshoot. I think it's the right thing to do. Edited to add: I forgot to reference the rule under which I would grant a reshoot: 8.6.3 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply Edited January 31, 2006 by ima45dv8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precision40 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 (edited) Hypothetical situation: Lets say the shooter has just tanked a big, 32 rd field course, hitting a couple of no-shoots, bobbled a couple mag changes and whatever else can go wrong. The shooter suddenly stops near the end, looks back at the crowd and RO and says he heard someone say "Stop" and starts wanting a re-shoot. If the RO didn't hear someone in the crowd say "Stop" Would that be grounds for a re-shoot? I wouldn't think so. I would think that the decision whether or not a "stop" command has yelled would be at the RO's discretion. What do y'all think? Edited January 31, 2006 by Precision40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Hypothetical situation: Lets say the shooter has just tanked a big, 32 rd field course, hitting a couple of no-shoots, bobbled a couple mag changes and whatever else can go wrong. The shooter suddenly stops near the end, looks back at the crowd and RO and says he heard someone say "Stop" and starts wanting a re-shoot. If the RO didn't hear someone in the crowd say "Stop" Would that be grounds for a re-shoot? I wouldn't think so. I would think that the decision whether or not a "stop" command has yelled would be at the RO's discretion. What do y'all think? It is the RO's call: 8.6.3 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Dale is correct. Opperative word here is "may". If I don't hear it, then I can't make a call based on whether it even happened. I don't know of any other way to be fair about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 (edited) Dale is correct. Opperative word here is "may". If I don't hear it, then I can't make a call based on whether it even happened.I don't know of any other way to be fair about it. You're right. Like I said, I heard something come from the gallery. It may have been "stop". But if it was, it was not very clear at all, nor was it in a command type voice. If the shooter wouldn't have stopped himself, I probably wouldn't have thought twice about it. Oh well. I seem to learn something at every match I go to. Edited January 31, 2006 by Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I seem to learn something at every match I go to. A good friend told me early on (well, probably not early enough) that if you don't learn something at every match, you might not paying attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharyn Posted February 1, 2006 Author Share Posted February 1, 2006 Well, chuckw pretty much sums up what I have to say about anyone other than the RO stopping the shooter. uhhh, Vincent, be careful... just remember I have pictures of you... and Photoshop... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 As for the shooter that yelled out... Was he right? If so, then I won't give a penalty. He wasn't trying to thwart a competitors run, he was trying to help. Was he wrong? Well then, did his squad start it wrong? Do they all need to reshoot? Does the MD need to change something in the walk through? Right or wrong on the start position I think this misses the point - unless it's a matter of life or death nobody has a right to yell out stuff except the RO and that's supported by the rules not to mention common sense... Maybe so. That is why I thought we should explore this avenue. What if a guy didn't know a popper he shot didn't fall so his wife yells out STOP to get him a reshoot? That sure seems to be outside the confines of sportsmanship. That is a far different situation than a guy that called out with nothing but good intentions. One is a cheater, the other either made a mistake and interrupted a shooters run, or was correct. If he was correct, some will be upset if he says something, some will be upset if he waits to say something. (Many shooters would like to know before they shoot the stage. A couple of reshoots on field courses can zap a shooter's match ammo supply pretty quick. And, so many shooters hate to go through a stage more than once.) Just food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman33_99 Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Spectators IMO should only yell stop for 2 reasons. One is safety because someone or something is downrange or some other safety issue is present. The second should only be before the actually start or darn close to it, and that is something with the stage has not been reset. Either a popper, a swinger, or the wind has just blown something over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 That pretty much covers it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 The second should only be before the actually start or darn close to it, and that is something with the stage has not been reset. Either a popper, a swinger, or the wind has just blown something over. In other words, "knowing there will HAVE to be a reshoot"? Is that much different from the situation that started this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman33_99 Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 (edited) The second should only be before the actually start or darn close to it, and that is something with the stage has not been reset. Either a popper, a swinger, or the wind has just blown something over. In other words, "knowing there will HAVE to be a reshoot"? Is that much different from the situation that started this thread? I believe the key differnce is one is related to range equipment, and one is related to the shooter. The shooter is the ROs responsiblity not the spectators. There are extremely few cases where a spectator should hollar any range commands based on something the shooter is doing (squib is about the only one and even that should be caught by the RO). The RO on some stages cannot see all the props downrange from the start location. Range equipment is pretty cut an dry...either it is reset or isn't. Start Postions as we have discussed in other threads aren't as cut an dry. Some read more into the description than what is there. That is a case to discuss w/RO after the run and let the RO decide if start postition matched the stage description. Edited February 1, 2006 by Tman33_99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 My two cents: Wrong start position, port or door in improper position, popper or activated target blown over or not reset, etc., if it's before the start signal --- o.k. to say so. Once the shooter has started his run --- unless someone's about to be injured or kilt, it ought to be up to the RO to stop the shooter. Too many chances for something to go wrong, or for mischief to occur. At my club matches, I constantly make the rounds, checking on start positions and other considerations, since we use embedded ROs. I typically handle any problem I see with the comment "well, that'll be a boatload of procedurals...." It's amazing how quickly squads learn to actually read the stage briefings..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharyn Posted February 1, 2006 Author Share Posted February 1, 2006 (edited) As for the shooter that yelled out... Was he right? If so, then I won't give a penalty. He wasn't trying to thwart a competitors run, he was trying to help. Was he wrong? Under the helpful guise, he still cannot be correct... stopping the competitor does thwart their run. Well then, did his squad start it wrong? Do they all need to reshoot? Does the MD need to change something in the walk through? Determining if one person or one squad started the stage incorrectly is not an issue to be discussed after the beep. Edited February 1, 2006 by Sharyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmut Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 sharyn.....don't tell me it was daryl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharyn Posted February 1, 2006 Author Share Posted February 1, 2006 sharyn.....don't tell me it was daryl? ROFL!!! Believe it or not, it wasn't Daryl either... I have had my electronic earmuffs customized to specifically tune out Daryl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 As for the shooter that yelled out... Was he right? If so, then I won't give a penalty. He wasn't trying to thwart a competitors run, he was trying to help. Was he wrong? Under the helpful guise, he still cannot be correct... stopping the competitor does thwart their run. Sharyn, Sorry -- no sale. If the competitor is started out of an incorrect start position, the run can't count for score --- so it's the RO error that thwarted the run. If poppers get blown down, the wind thwarted the shooter's run. Now, if some nudnick is mistaken about the start position, and yells stop, even though the shooter was in the proper position, then the shouter has thwarted the shooter's run. How about either answering Flex's question, or providing the details we seem to be missing? Right now it appears you're looking for a black and white answer in a grey field.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharyn Posted February 2, 2006 Author Share Posted February 2, 2006 (edited) huh?!?! Nik, I answered that question many posts back... The shooter did not miss the start position. The RO did not miss the start position. The start position was correct. On to the next subject: Under the helpful guise, he still cannot be correct... stopping the competitor does thwart their run. Please allow me to attempt to rephrase this... Flex said that if the "yeller" was correct about the start position, he wouldn't assess a penalty because the "yeller's" intentions were good. I think this is poopy. Right or wrong about the start position, if his yelling caused the shooter to stop, he has thwarted the competitors run and he is wrong in his actions. It's not the spectators job to "help" with calls. AFTER THE BEEP, IF I started out of an incorrect start position, that's my problem. Crap happens. edited to attempt to clarify. Edited February 2, 2006 by Sharyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Do you know what's worse than hearing "STOP!" while you're shooting a stage? Hearing someone other than the RO/SO say "Procedural". Frick! Frack! Talking about messing up your concentration. You wonder who said it, why they said it, what you screwed up on, etc. etc. And is someone snitching you out, because the SO didn't catch it. Chills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Heiter Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Everyone can what if this to death but the bottom line is that I'm sure it affected your run even if you did get the reshoot and that sucks. Unfortunately, there are times when people who are just trying their best to be helpful do the wrong thing. If the person who did it makes a habit of it, I'd have a talk with them but, in general, I think having people around me who want to help me out is a pretty good (non-poopy even) thing. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 (edited) If the "helper" is correct, then a reshoot is the only recourse. No run has been thwarted. I can't find grounds for interference to issue a procedural to the "helper". If the helper is wrong, but his squad just shot the stage with a different start position, then the MD would likely consider changing the start position so that the previous squad doesn't all have to reshoot...or the stage doesn't have to be tossed out. (You did say you were the first shooter in your squad, correct?) The current shooter would still be doing a reshoot, no run thwarted (by the helper). If, as the RO, I felt that the "helper" had intent, I would award the helper with a penalty. That is my take on the rules issues. As for when to reshoot the shooter...I'd give the shooter the choice. --------------------- Now, my personal opinion is that the "peanut gallery" almost always needs to keep their pie-holes shut. --------------------- As a shooter, I have embraced reshoots as part of the game. I just reset my mental program and treat the reshoot like any other stage. I usually don't want to go "right now" (many shooter prefer that), because I don't want to rush. I don't want to go to the end of the line either. My choice, is to go to the on-deck spot while they run the next shooter. Edited February 2, 2006 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharyn Posted February 2, 2006 Author Share Posted February 2, 2006 Flex, I understand your perspective better now. In the match that this occurred, I'm not so concerned about the "yeller" receiving a penalty... However, I'm going to contradict myself here and say that if this happened at a major match, I'd expect for them to receive a penalty regardless of their intentions or if they were right or wrong. Fact being that they interrupted the shooter's run and that affects the shooter. (I'm also a proponent of running local matches as if they were big matches so that people can learn the rules properly in a less stressful and costly environment). Now, utilizing the rule for guidance: 8.6.2 Any person providing assistance or interference to a competitorduring a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6. There are many ways to provide assistance or interference to a competitor during a course of fire. If you and your buddies are joking and playing around and someone yells "Stop!" because you're about to punch him... the current shooter hears this and stops... that is inadvertent interference. Ooops! I'm so sorry! Reshoot, nasty glare and continue on. When someone yells "Stop!" in order to cease the competitors run, that is deliberate interference with the competitors run. So, I understand you to say that you'd base your call off of the intentions of the interference and I'd base my call off of the deliberateness and the effect on the shooter. Yeah? Now, I must say that the way the rule is worded, in my interpretation, it leans more toward someone's assistance/interference benefitting the shooter. Probably due to the comment: "and the competitor received such assistance". So, that makes it a little more difficult to apply to the situation. However, I still interpret its meaning to relate to the outcome of the interference on the shooter. To me, this is about the shooter and protecting their game. I feel that this approach would be more fair and consistant. You stopped the shooter, you intended to stop the shooter, you're not the RO and there are already rules in place that deal with incorrect start positions. True? Will it really be all that traumatic if you, as the spectator, allow that shooter and RO to proceed then discuss the matter after the run? Or is the start position/reshoot so important that you are overwhelmingly compelled to "help" by overriding the RO's authority and interrupting the shooter? Is it so detrimental that you also receive 10 points off your run for interferring with someone else's run? Will you open your piehole next time??? Since I know you are familiar with Lanny Bassham's teachings... what does that "STOP!" do to your mental program for your next run... ??? John, I don't think I've run across anyone in our sport that wasn't trying to be helpful (in their mind). I am grateful for that aspect of our sport. However, despite their intentions, they should take responsibility for their actions and understand that their help just might not be helpful. It's nice to see there are so many compassionate men here... However, you can also help an old lady cross the street... when the light is red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Since I know you are familiar with Lanny Bassham's teachings... what does that "STOP!" do to your mental program for your next run... ??? It does nothing to my mental program. I accept that reshoots are part of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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