2025 PST Changes

[Hoops]

New PST’s posted in July 2024 BOD Minutes.  There are numerous changes.

[Hoops]

[Flatland Shooter]

Thanks.

Edited July 13 by Flatland Shooter

[GKB]

Ouch.  RFPI is losing over 8 seconds.

 

[Hoops]

There are serious changes.  My ego just ate humble pie

[GKB]

The 49 GMs for RFPI become 20 GMs under the 2025 PSTs.

[blackss06]

Looks like reasonable changes. I’ll have to dust off the RFPI sometime. 
 

Still don’t understand how S&H isn’t 9.5 or below with CO. I’d argue that a 9.75 on Showdown out of the holster is much more difficult than a 9.78 on S&H. 

[shred]

S&H has bigger transitions on it.  Showdown and Roundabout are usually faster for me because of that.  I find it easier to get 2.5's on those two in CO vs S&H, but I'm also kind of slow on the draw.

 

[joseywales]

 

As I understood Jeff Jones description of the Peak Time calculation used for 2024 peak times, i.e.,

discard any stage time > 110% of current PST, then average the rest of the times between 95% - 110% for new PST.

It appears that the times over 110% PST are now included in the 2025 calculation.

At least, that's what I see for Carry Optics.  Haven't looked at any other divisions yet.

 

Also, don't see that they followed the "round any change to the nearest 0.25 seconds" component.

 

I think last year they presented a new peak time calculation table and then revised it to make the hundredths components of the time come out in the 0.25, 0.50, 0.75 increments.  Maybe that's coming this year too.

 

[Hoops]

I’m reserving further comment until an explanation is offered relative to methodology.  My initial thought was are these times putting classes beyond the reach of good shooters who may now disillusioned to extent that memberships may be reconsidered.  Getting close to a Pro-Am arrangement?

[GKB]

Here are the updated 2025 PSTs.

 

Spreadsheet Version (includes tabs for 2025, 2024, and 2023)

https://app.box.com/s/l5rfljs34hyuex6uvtos8qh8vr9r4ym4

 

PDF Version

https://app.box.com/s/vgy1v9gbfo0yn0gyyxkch4xmhbwb9qk8

 

Edited July 15 by GKB

[GKB]

27 minutes ago, Hoops said:

My initial thought was are these times putting classes beyond the reach of good shooters who may now disillusioned to extent that memberships may be reconsidered.

 

It sucks the hill keeps getting steeper to climb.

 

I started Steel Challenge with RFPI but switched to RFRO due to reliability issues with my pistol.  With these time changes (and probably more of the same in later years), it now looks like I'll never go back to RFPI.

[Hoops]

There is already a disproportionately distribution of B and C shooters.  The fixation of “too many GM’s” which is the smallest group already could result in unintended consequences.  
 

SCSA Mission Statement

Our mission is to promote safe, fair and fun participation in Steel Shooting competition, for members of all ages and skill levels,

[Joe4d]

I dont understand the mentality,, 
If I cant be a GM I dont want to play... ? I Dont get it.
Put what ever letters you want after your name.. You're still gonna beat the same people, and lose to the same people. 

[jrdoran]

7 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

I dont understand the mentality,, 
If I cant be a GM I dont want to play... ? I Dont get it.
Put what ever letters you want after your name.. You're still gonna beat the same people, and lose to the same people. 

+1.   Well Said.  In the end, the race is only with ourselves.  

[shred]

The stages haven't changed, equipment hasn't changed much, all it is is a few people have gotten much better at muscle memory.  Nobody even seems very clear if 'GM' is supposed to be the top 5% of shooters or the top 5% skill level or what, but keep raising the bar because of what somebody else did and watch people not come back.

 

[Joe4d]

1 hour ago, jrdoran said:

+1.   Well Said.  In the end, the race is only with ourselves.  

pretty much,, I mainly look at class as a goal for myself,, Doesnt matter where the bars are,,  reaching each one is your feed back.

[jrdoran]

32 minutes ago, shred said:

 equipment hasn't changed much

 

32 minutes ago, shred said:

all it is is a few people have gotten much better at muscle memory.

 

Quote

Nobody even seems very clear if 'GM' is supposed to be the top 5% of shooters or the top 5% skill level or what

 

Huh?

 

• Every low ready division has had huge improvements in weight, low power ammo,  fiber optic sights, triggers and chassis configurations.  Even shooting glasses and hearing protection continue to evolve.   
   
• And yes muscle memory or more commonly called training has played a big role.  

 

• 100% agree that in a large ( 10s of thousands ) of participant hobby there should be a clear strategy, transparency and documented logic on how new goals are put forward.  Can you imagine golf or tennis or pickleball doing this sort of thing, I can't.   Someone punches out a few numbers in a spreadsheet and we are all left speculating what the logical approach to new classification goals are.   
   

Edited July 14 by jrdoran

[shred]

1 hour ago, jrdoran said:

 

• Every low ready division has had huge improvements in weight, low power ammo,  fiber optic sights, triggers and chassis configurations.  Even shooting glasses and hearing protection continue to evolve.   

 

What changed in CO or Open or Single Stack to knock 1-2 seconds off a good score?  CO is Production with a dot but PD didn't change.   What did I miss in RFPI last year that's good for a second per stage?

 

Sure, maybe the numbers were overall inaccurate in some of the lightly-shot divisions, but without knowing what the goals are like you say, it's just a guess.

 

 

[jrdoran]

23 minutes ago, shred said:

What did I miss in RFPI that's good for a second per stage?

Go ask these guys as in only 6 months of 2024 they have managed to shoot well above GM times ! 

There are over 50 current GM RFPI shooters using the current + prior 2 years of SCSA.   28 of the are more than 100%. 

http://steelrankings.com/

[GKB]

14 minutes ago, jrdoran said:

There are over 50 current GM RFPI shooters using the current + prior 2 years of SCSA.

 

Actually, it's 49.  And if the 2025 PST changes went into effect today there would be only 20.

 

[jrdoran]

Seriously Gary, you don't want to count Jeff at 94.99% as a GM ? 

 

 

[GKB]

2 minutes ago, jrdoran said:

Seriously Gary, you don't want to count Jeff at 94.99% as a GM ? 

 

No.  The line is at 95%.  You've either hit that or not.

[Hoops]

8 hours ago, jrdoran said:

   Someone punches out a few numbers in a spreadsheet and we are all left speculating what the logical approach to new classification goals are.   
 

It’s my understanding that the evaluation has been WSSC 95% to 110.00% ( anything over 110.00% is not considered) and then take the average of this range to establish baseline PST’s.  I haven’t had time to look at the 2o24 WSSC results to compare to the new Peak Times.

[schmidtg]

10 hours ago, GKB said:

 

Actually, it's 49.  And if the 2025 PST changes went into effect today there would be only 20.

 

I encourage you to regenerate and post this table for all divisions against 2025 PSTs.  It would be a helpful tool to understand how well-calibrated the GM standard is for each division with 2025 PSTs in place.

 

The Rimfire/PCC divisions will most definitely be better calibrated after this change, but the visualization helps us see if the GM standard is consistent across divisions.