Randy Lee Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 (edited) Something to consider regarding the extra power c-stop spring- it will aggravate the wear along the top surface of the stop, riding surface on the cylinder, the pull-down ledge/reset surface of the MIM c-stop and may not prevent skip from showing his ugly head. I did some field expedient surgery on an Aussie revo two years ago at the IRC that had skipping(the spring was replaced with a stronger version down under by his 'smith). The gun was still skipping when he arrived here. Luckily, the repairs held for the entire match, but I recommended the cylinder be replaced. Edited January 10, 2006 by Randy Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Plains Drifter Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Mike! I just had to chime in. In the Past two years I have put approx. 50,000 rounds down range, either in practice or local matches. I have only had three mechanical malfunctions.And only these three ! 1. 2004 USPSA Nationals. 1st day third stage of the day I shot the the comp off my IMM Shorty. Actually it did not come all the way off but the round hole through it looked more like a tee pee !!!!! 2. This year @ Area III (my bad....you actually have to lube a revolver ????) lack of lube caused a curious galling between the hammer and the rebound slide and resultant trigger sticking / non movement ! 3. As if that was not enough AGAIN this year Area II For no, good,plausable, reason my "ole reliable" 25-2 exibited light primer hits (read ,,,no boom) on three stages !!!!!!in a row ! There is still no reason that I, or others more in the know I can find to explain this one!!!!!!! WHY O WHY at the major matches ???? I guess what I am saying is ,,,,it could have been worse ! Anyway congrats on a great year and good luck with the new CS....Hope it solves the current dilemma and "holds up". OBTW Hope you and Sam make the Rocky Mountain ICORE match this year. It was great fun! Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Great posts so far. I'll ask my gunsmith if he has any useful solutions to this problem. For now I'll throw in a regular MIM stop. FWIW, cylinder stops receive the worst abuse during dryfire, when practicing insane splits you never use in matches. Something to think about I think I'm going to be a little more smooth and a little less abusive on my revolver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 (edited) OK, since Mike and I know guys that have shot 10s of thousands of rounds through Blued Smith .44s (including his guns...)that were on the eged of reason and didnt have the cylinder stop problems now experienced....Is this a simple heat treat problem with the stainless? How about all the K and L frame guns that have been run for PPC and Bianchi for god knows howmany rounds with no problems like this. I have handled these guns and am friends with a gunsmith who builds them....I know they have less mass on the cylinders, but what I am reading is that the newer guns (stainless) is having this problem. Do we need to take our cylinders out and send them back to Smith and tell them to get the heat treat right, or is this something we can send out and have done somewhere with the right specs? We all cant just have guns built on Friday......(back to lurking mode..... ) DougC Edited January 10, 2006 by DougC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
festus1 Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 What about a larger lead in groove like USFA does on their "race groove competition" package for their Rodeo revolver? Would that help for a more positive engagement of the CS? Here is a link to a pic. Chris http://www.usfirearms.com/cat/rodeo-race-groove-comp.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 OK, since Mike and I know guys that have shot 10s of thousands of rounds through Blued Smith .44s (including his guns...)that were on the eged of reason and didnt have the cylinder stop problems now experienced....Is this a simple heat treat problem with the stainless? How about all the K and L frame guns that have been run for PPC and Bianchi for god knows howmany rounds with no problems like this. I have handled these guns and am friends with a gumsmith who builds them....I know they have less mass on the cylinders, but what I am reading is that the newer guns (stainless) is having this problem. Doug, I don't think it's so much the number of rounds fired, or how heavy the loads are, but more a matter of how hard you slam the cylinder against the cylinder stop (how fast you pull the trigger), and how often you do that. Heat treating could help the wear on the stop, but it could also become more prone to breaking (like my non-MIM part did). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 10, 2006 Author Share Posted January 10, 2006 (edited) Mike! OBTW Hope you and Sam make the Rocky Mountain ICORE match this year. It was great fun! Kevin Kevin, it's on the calendar and we're hoping to make it out this year. My spring work calendar right now is really heavy, so that might be a problem. If we make the trip, I promise we won't ditch you on the way to the restaurant again. I still feel guilty about that. I never should've listened to DougC when he kept saying, "F(*& him, I'm hungry, keep driving!" Edited January 10, 2006 by Carmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 10, 2006 Author Share Posted January 10, 2006 FWIW, cylinder stops receive the worst abuse during dryfire, when practicing insane splits you never use in matches. Funny you should mention that. A couple days before I had the problems described here, that old "how fast can you pull the trigger?" thread of yours surfaced here on the forum. So naturally I went down and got out my 625 and the timer and sat there dry-cranking it as fast as I possibly could to see how fast I could go. [....I'm deliberately leaving this perfect set-up for Cliff's punch line....] Gotta wonder if the gun was just on the edge, and that little bit of abuse was enough to send it over into the abyss. What about a larger lead in groove like USFA does on their "race groove competition" package for their Rodeo revolver? Would that help for a more positive engagement of the CS? Here is a link to a pic. Chrishttp://www.usfirearms.com/cat/rodeo-race-groove-comp.asp Very interesting thought. We're seeing the peening at the edges of the stop notches, and damage at the edge of the cylinder stop. Would our problems be solved if we simply allowed the cylinder stop a head-start on full engagement by deepening the lead-in groove?? Hmmmmm........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Oh right, Counselor, The guy that was saying..."Hey, I know you have a Hemi and can make all the YELLOW lights, but I cant see Kevin anymore...." was the bad guy..... DougC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 FWIW, cylinder stops receive the worst abuse during dryfire, when practicing insane splits you never use in matches. Funny you should mention that. A couple days before I had the problems described here, that old "how fast can you pull the trigger?" thread of yours surfaced here on the forum. So naturally I went down and got out my 625 and the timer and sat there dry-cranking it as fast as I possibly could to see how fast I could go. [....I'm deliberately leaving this perfect set-up for Cliff's punch line....] Gotta wonder if the gun was just on the edge, and that little bit of abuse was enough to send it over into the abyss. Dang! Yeah, I guess I should apologize (in advance) to all the shooters who killed their revolvers after reading that thread. Maybe we should delete it and replace it with a "splits don't matter" thread. My cylinder stop broke at the range, but I had been practicing splits in dryfire a lot the week before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R112mercer Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 OK, since Mike and I know guys that have shot 10s of thousands of rounds through Blued Smith .44s (including his guns...)that were on the eged of reason and didnt have the cylinder stop problems now experienced....Is this a simple heat treat problem with the stainless? How about all the K and L frame guns that have been run for PPC and Bianchi for god knows howmany rounds with no problems like this. I have handled these guns and am friends with a gumsmith who builds them....I know they have less mass on the cylinders, but what I am reading is that the newer guns (stainless) is having this problem. Doug, I don't think it's so much the number of rounds fired, or how heavy the loads are, but more a matter of how hard you slam the cylinder against the cylinder stop (how fast you pull the trigger), and how often you do that. Heat treating could help the wear on the stop, but it could also become more prone to breaking (like my non-MIM part did). I'm in complete agreement with Bjorn and Mike. It's the speed at which we use these guns that causes the stress. When Skip showed up to bugger my gun I noticed it was only on real fast, speed shoot-type stages and classifiers, where you're standing still and pushing for trigger speed. After a goofed classifier I went to the safety area to see what the problem was. I found I had to yank on the trigger real hard to get it to skip, if I pulled slow and smooth the gun worked normal. I'm sure this would have gotten worse over time, but it shows that it's the speed that's killing the cylinder stops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 True. The problem is that we have to work on trigger speed SOMEtime. Maybe the best solution is buying a real junker (say an old S&W 27) and just work the trigger on that gun to save the match gun (just for fast trigger work). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Lee Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 After just waking up, it dawned on me that there is also another culprit in the "See Skip run" story. In several instances the bolt hole in the frame becomes elongated and or enlarged- in part due to panic closing during fast reloads. This causes misalignment between the CS and CS slot orientation. This is another area where Smith could improve longevity of their product. Installing a hardened "replaceable" bushing would be of great help. This is also where the reduced mass of the Ti cylinder is advantageous. Besides being less taxing to the impact surface of the CS, reducing the mass means reducing damage to the bolt hole. As the hole enlarges, the force exerted by the cylinder hand rotates the cylinder up and to the left in a sort of elliptical path. It only takes a thousandth or two of lift coupled with a worn (top of dome) to cause the slip by. Off to work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 10, 2006 Author Share Posted January 10, 2006 True. The problem is that we have to work on trigger speed SOMEtime. Maybe the best solution is buying a real junker (say an old S&W 27) and just work the trigger on that gun to save the match gun (just for fast trigger work). This reminds me of the old junky 5" M-27 I bought years ago for $125 because it had a bulged barrel. Obviously somebody had lit one off with something stuck in the barrel. Turns out my bulged barrel shot just fine, I carried the gun in my bag as a back-up to my long-tom M-27 Baumannizer, but I never really needed a back-up..... This is also where the reduced mass of the Ti cylinder is advantageous. Randy, the more I think about it, the more I just think DougC might be right when he suggests that S&W simply does not properly heat-treat their cylinders these days. S&W has been making stainless guns for decades. Competitive shooters have used them all along. And the cylinder peening problems all seem to involve newer-production guns...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 OK, since Mike and I know guys that have shot 10s of thousands of rounds through Blued Smith .44s (including his guns...)that were on the eged of reason and didnt have the cylinder stop problems now experienced....Is this a simple heat treat problem with the stainless? How about all the K and L frame guns that have been run for PPC and Bianchi for god knows howmany rounds with no problems like this. I have handled these guns and am friends with a gunsmith who builds them....I know they have less mass on the cylinders, but what I am reading is that the newer guns (stainless) is having this problem. Do we need to take our cylinders out and send them back to Smith and tell them to get the heat treat right, or is this something we can send out and have done somewhere with the right specs? We all cant just have guns built on Friday......(back to lurking mode..... ) DougC DougC, You might be on to something there. I have an old 586. No dashes nuffin just old. I had it industrial hardchromed and run it till I had all the parts inside replaced, several times, broke the hammer pivot pin, repaired it. and then in 1992 finally had the crane wear out so that the cylinder would wobble on it. took the cylinder out so that Vic Pickett could use it on his 686 as his cylinder was peaned so bad the cylinder stop would not work. After he got his cylinder replaced I put it up. Just this year I took the cylinder and put it in a 686 plus 4 inch so I could play at an IDPA match and I can still shoot it. I can not say how many rounds have been through it but it has had its share of abuse including 200 pwrfctr with a 160 grain bullet in a 38 special, ( I wasn't to bright back then, and nuffin has changed) It has some good metal thar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Bubber, I would have to say your controlled, almost delicate, operation of the trigger is a factor as well. (I'll have to watch closer to see if he holds his pinky out when shooting) Some of us are a bit more brutish. I'm confident my lack of finesse has contributed to my cylinder mortality in the past. I'm trying to learn that splits just don't matter very much in the overall scheme of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 I'm trying to learn that splits just don't matter very much in the overall scheme of things. Very true. Look at Ricardo Lopez. This guy has an amazing draw, great reloads, and RUNS like he stole something. He shoots a revolver with a 12lbs. trigger and his splits never run lower than .23s. And he gets about 97% of Jerry. Splits don't mean anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 12, 2006 Author Share Posted January 12, 2006 Hell, I never knew what my splits were until this past week when I came across Spook's old thread and couldn't resist seeing how fast I could crank 'n' yank. Lots of .16s and .17s, one lone .15. Doubt if I'll ever try to go that fast at a match, except maybe at near-contact distance. Doubt if Jerry will either, for that matter. And of course, this little stunt apparently sent my 625 over the edge into intermittent free-wheeling, which is what started this conversation. As reported above, I fixed the problem by replacing the cylinder stop, which had really become knocked out of shape. Last night I took the gun apart and looked everything over very closely, and in doing so convinced myself that the cylinder itself remains in reasonably decent shape at present. Yes, the CS stops had become somewhat peened, but only mildly so. So I brought out my entire array of abrasive technology, rotary and reciprocal, and spent quite a long time very carefully deburring, cleaning up, and polishing the notch and lead-in bearing surfaces. It went quite well--now you would have to look very closely to detect any telltale evidence of peening (since I can't put metal back where it once was, there remains a very slight curvature of the far edge of each CS notch). The CS engages perfectly and the gun works quite well. The 625 is fixed, for now at least. But how do I keep it that way?? After thinking things over carefully, I made the decision to have the entire gun hard-chromed. The monetary investment will be about the same as ordering a Ti cylinder (or a bit less), but I'll have a great finish on the whole revolver, which is an idea I like--my old Nowlin 25-2 is hard-chromed, and it's been a fantastic finish in every way. I really like my 625, and quite honestly I'm reluctant to change anything--including the cylinder. The cylinder is plenty accurate, but the chamfer is perfect and and it's very slick and forgiving on the reloads, and I can make it through a 2-day match without even so much as brushing the chambers and never have things get sticky, even with the lead bullets I shoot. (In my brief experience with Ti, things have always gotten sticky much more quickly than I prefer....) Moreover, the plating job should give me extended longevity not just on the cylinder, but also on the CS and hand windows in the frame, and virtually every other friction/wear area on the gun. The gun is nicely broken-in but still fairly new so it's not like I'm just plating over a bunch of other pre-existing problems. So Waltermitty, I hope you're not too disappointed with me for not exactly heeding your advice--I guess I'll let your gun be the USPSA test-bed for Ti cylinder durability, and mine will be the guinea pig to see how long we can ward off the reappearance of the peening problems through the magic of chrome-plating. It will be interesting to compare in a year or two how things are holding up, respectively. Anyway, the gun's on its way down to the plater now, and I'm told I'll have it back in plenty of time to get it ready for the WI Sectional. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Mike - Did you detail-strip it before you sent it out? If so, what parts didn't you send, and to whom did you send it? I'm looking for someone who's familiar with round guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 So Waltermitty, I hope you're not too disappointed with me for not exactly heeding your advice--I guess I'll let your gun be the USPSA test-bed for Ti cylinder durability, and mine will be the guinea pig to see how long we can ward off the reappearance of the peening problems through the magic of chrome-plating. It will be interesting to compare in a year or two how things are holding up, respectively. Anyway, the gun's on its way down to the plater now, and I'm told I'll have it back in plenty of time to get it ready for the WI Sectional. Mike Let me get that stainless stop to you before it goes out so you can start new. I will get to the PO tomorrow. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 So Waltermitty, I hope you're not too disappointed with me for not exactly heeding your advice--I guess I'll let your gun be the USPSA test-bed for Ti cylinder durability, and mine will be the guinea pig to see how long we can ward off the reappearance of the peening problems through the magic of chrome-plating. It will be interesting to compare in a year or two how things are holding up, respectively. Anyway, the gun's on its way down to the plater now, and I'm told I'll have it back in plenty of time to get it ready for the WI Sectional. Mike I'm not dissapointed at all! It sounds like you're taking a prudent path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 12, 2006 Author Share Posted January 12, 2006 Mike - Did you detail-strip it before you sent it out? If so, what parts didn't you send, and to whom did you send it? I'm looking for someone who's familiar with round guns. Chuck, I sent it to Ford's plating: www.fordsguns.com Awhile back they sent me a nice color brochure and it featured a number of revolvers with various finishes. I've heard lots of good things about Ford's from the worry-warts on the S&W Forum, too. Ford's has great dealer prices, and they take care of disassembly/reassembly at no additional charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.carden Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Mike I'll send you a PM on that subject later today!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 12, 2006 Author Share Posted January 12, 2006 Let me get that stainless stop to you before it goes out so you can start new. Thanks Gary, I really appreciate it, but the gun's already gone. The plater is normally on a 10-week turnaround, but when they found out I was a competitive shooter they kindly agreed to get the gun done before they leave for the Shot Show in February--but only if I could get the down there right away. So it went out yesterday. I put in a brand new MIM cylinder stop, and I'm actually kind of curious to see how the plating effects its performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Berryhill Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Very interesting topic. (I haven't visited in a while and just started lurking here again). The idea of the cylinder stop being sacrificial isn't a bad idea. Brownells has started carrying Ron Powers new cylinder stop (part# 713-000-066). Has anyone tried it yet? Also, did anyone notice the S&W cylinder shown in the "Insider" column in the last issue or two of American Handgunner? It showed some photos of how S&W used to repair damaged cylinder stop notches by inserting a small piece of steel into the side of the notch. I'd love to find out more details about how that was done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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