Canik Rival-S shoots to the right

[Seanzky]

I finally got to take out my Rival-S to an indoor range today to confirm zero and play with it a little, double taps, etc. But before I went, I used two different bore sights to adjust my red dot. This way, if it's not dead on, at least I'll be in the ballpark. By the way, these two bore sights have never let me down on any of my guns before, pistols and PCCs. Using them to zero all of my 9mm guns have yielded exact point of aim and point of impact with live rounds, 100% of the time, using my usual competition loads.

 

Today, however, when I shot the Rival-S at the range, I was surprised that my shots were consistently hitting 2" to the right of where my red dot is. I thought maybe I missed something when I zeroed at home using the bore sights. So, I adjusted my red dot. I shot a total of 200-300 rounds using factory 124gr Federal, 135gr BBI (two different loads), and 124gr Berry's. It started hitting exactly where I aimed. No surprise since I adjusted my red dot. I let my shooting buddy, who also shoots matches with me, try it and he was able to confirm zero as well. Now that I'm home, I decided to check with the bore sights again and sure enough, my dot was to the left of the laser on the wall, exactly 2". I put the rear iron back on and still the laser on the wall was to the right of the front post. All of these were done at 7 yards, by the way.

 

What could be the problem here? I considered user error at first, but two users??? We were also able to hit where we were aiming consistently, after adjusting the red dot. I know it's not the bore sights. How can it be the barrel if it's consistently accurate? I'm stumped. I have no idea what's going on.

[Seanzky]

No one has seen this issue before? I must have gotten lucky with my copy of the Rival-S.

[BradNC]

I'm no expert on slide-to-frame fitness (like a gunsmith would be), but could it be that the barrel is "jumping" slightly sideways at the chamber end (or even the muzzle?) during live-fire? Hence causing an angled discharge that you don't measure with your boresight approach? And zeroing using the red-dot and live-fire compensates for the precision issue? Maybe someone that's an expert can provide a solid answer instead of a "theory".

 

Also, my TP9SFx stock sights were pretty far off vertically, so maybe comparing to your stock irons is of little value because unless Canik has improved stock sights they might not be trustable. I just zero the red-dot using live-fire, although I use off-hand and not a bench rest to do it at 7 yards.

 

Good luck.

[BradNC]

Sorry, I meant barrel-to-slide fitness, not slide-to-frame fitness!

[Seanzky]

That's an interesting theory. Considering that I can't think of what could possibly be causing this, I can't dismiss your theory. However, if I try to wiggle the barrel before and after racking the slide, there's absolutely no play. I'm really stumped. I can't figure out why this is happening. Is it because it hasn't been broken in yet?

[RJH]

Chamber canted or off center of bore maybe?

[BradNC]

Unfortunately, with my TP9SFx barrel lockup seems tight most of the time, but sometimes my lockup allows a little lateral play between the barrel and slide. I've never measured bore aim with a bore-sight compared to point of impact, so I dunno if my random play amount means anything during live-fire (but I don't get lateral fliers due to the gun). But your error is consistent, so maybe RJH's chamber cant/offset has good merit, but I would think that bore direction and rifling would be the final decider on trajectory...but I'm no gunsmith!

[BradNC]

BTW, I'm probably glad I can't measure things too accurately with my TP9SFx specimen. I think I'd be bald by now pulling my hair out...  Sometimes it doesn't pay to measure things (and I'm a retired engineer that spent a career studying quantitative things).

[BradNC]

Sorry for rambling on... If it were me, I'd replace the stock striker spring (which is about a 16# spring!) with a 29N (6.52#) Sprinco striker spring to eliminate the huge impact that striker spring has on the assembly. This change would at least eliminate the potential for any jumping caused by an over-powerful striker that could cause a misalignment to occur.

[BradNC]

I just measured my TP9SFx free-play at the chamber end. When cocked with a snap-cap in the chamber and a full magazine my chamber has about 0.25mm of lateral free-play. (It's locked up tight when not cocked!)  0.25mm of free-play translates into about 0.5" of lateral shift at a 21' target. So in theory my TP9SFX can't do better than 0.5" groups at 21'.  For you to get a 2" shift would need a 1mm jump/shift at the end of the chamber. That doesn't seem realistic, so maybe the free-play/shift theory is no good.

[Seanzky]

On 10/20/2023 at 4:11 PM, RJH said:

Chamber canted or off center of bore maybe?

Hmmm... I think you might be on the money. I read somewhere, in one of the threads here, that someone got their barrel reamed for their handloads and that the place that did it told him that the bore wasn't centered. If that's the case, no big deal. I've already zeroed my DPP to live rounds. I don't really care to be honest. It just bugged me that I couldn't figure it out.

 

@BradNC, yeah my Rival-S has zero play. Pretty impressive actually. I've owned/own guns that cost the same or more that has the slightest of give when I jiggle the barrel hood. This one does NOT move at all.

[Seanzky]

10 hours ago, BradNC said:

Sorry for rambling on... If it were me, I'd replace the stock striker spring (which is about a 16# spring!) with a 29N (6.52#) Sprinco striker spring to eliminate the huge impact that striker spring has on the assembly. This change would at least eliminate the potential for any jumping caused by an over-powerful striker that could cause a misalignment to occur.

 

Yup, the Sprinco trigger kit springs and the Sprinco guide rod, guide rod spring and striker spring are on their way. So far, I've only installed the Freedomsmith trigger on it. It's very good, but I'm not surprised. I already had the Fat Daddy on my TP9SFX.

8 hours ago, BradNC said:

I just measured my TP9SFx free-play at the chamber end. When cocked with a snap-cap in the chamber and a full magazine my chamber has about 0.25mm of lateral free-play. (It's locked up tight when not cocked!)  0.25mm of free-play translates into about 0.5" of lateral shift at a 21' target. So in theory my TP9SFX can't do better than 0.5" groups at 21'.  For you to get a 2" shift would need a 1mm jump/shift at the end of the chamber. That doesn't seem realistic, so maybe the free-play/shift theory is no good.

 

Yeah, whether slide cocked or not, neither the barrel tip nor the barrel hood have any play to them whatsoever. The only explanation is what @RJH said. I'm curious to see how this affects other distances. I have yet to test that out.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Seanzky

[Racinready300ex]

Does the problem get worse at distance? Meaning if you zero at 10 or what ever does can you hit what you need to at 30-40 yards? If I could get the level of accuracy I need I wouldn't worry about it. If not I'd probably send it back.

 

I once had a bolt action savage that I bore sighted and the POI was way off. So I adjusted my scope and ended up maxing out the vertical and windage to get the POA to the POI at 100 yards. The barrel grouped great. It was shooting .25-.5" groups at 100. But something was clearly wrong and the gun was useless past 100. I ended up just getting a new barrel and the problem was solved. No idea what was wrong with that barrel but it was clearly jacked up. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Racinready300ex

[Seanzky]

42 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Does the problem get worse at distance? Meaning if you zero at 10 or what ever does can you hit what you need to at 30-40 yards? If I could get the level of accuracy I need I wouldn't worry about it. If not I'd probably send it back.

 

I once had a bolt action savage that I bore sighted and the POI was way off. So I adjusted my scope and ended up maxing out the vertical and windage to get the POA to the POI at 100 yards. The barrel grouped great. It was shooting .25-.5" groups at 100. But something was clearly wrong and the gun was useless past 100. I ended up just getting a new barrel and the problem was solved. No idea what was wrong with that barrel but it was clearly jacked up. 

Hmmm... To be honest, I hadn't thought of that and that's an excellent point. Now, I'm kind of regretting I sent the barrel to get reamed when it could have that same issue. That would be terrible if I were at a match and I'm only accurate up to 10 yards. The worst part is that this is windage and not elevation, which I can easily compensate for once I have the "DOPE" in my head. I'll have to test again once the barrel comes back. Sigh.

 

Does Canik or any aftermarket companies sell a Rival-S barrel?

[Racinready300ex]

58 minutes ago, Seanzky said:

Hmmm... To be honest, I hadn't thought of that and that's an excellent point. Now, I'm kind of regretting I sent the barrel to get reamed when it could have that same issue. That would be terrible if I were at a match and I'm only accurate up to 10 yards. The worst part is that this is windage and not elevation, which I can easily compensate for once I have the "DOPE" in my head. I'll have to test again once the barrel comes back. Sigh.

 

Does Canik or any aftermarket companies sell a Rival-S barrel?

 

I've not seen any after market Canik barrels yet. Canik in theory will have some at some point. 

[BradNC]

There's an after-market barrel for the TP9SFx. I would hope they materialize for Rivals soon.

 

https://www.preppergunshop.com/rcm-canik-threaded-barrels-canik-tp9sfx-threaded-barrel-1-2x28-thread-made-by-rcm-only-fits-tp9sfx

 

I have my sights set on one for my TP9SFx next year.

 

[Seanzky]

So I went to the range today to shoot about 150 rounds of 124 gr. Federal ammo through my newly-reamed barrel (by Patriot Defense). It's still shooting to the right, I didn't expect this to be fixed, but now the barrel seems to be less accurate, too??? I'm not 100% sure if the reaming did this or not, but it seems like the grouping has scattered a bit. Also, I tried what you said @Racinready300ex and past 10 yards, the shots move further to the right!  It means the barrel doesn't just shoot to the right, it's crooked! Once in a while, even if I slingshot the slide, a round would fail to feed. It would just jam between the breech face and the feed ramp. It's as if the feed ramp isn't angled enough, although the angle of feed ramps on my other guns are similar to my Rival-S'. Weird.

 

This barrel is no use to me for plinking, much less competition. I tried shooting slowly while leaning on the wall to steady my shots and holy moly not only was it shooting further to the right, the group went from 4-5" at 10 yards to 8-9" at 15 yards. I didn't even bother to try beyond that. It was clear as day. Keep in mind that this is after I adjusted the red dot for a 7-yard zero in my last range visit. But besides the barrel shooting right, I'm so blown away by the inaccuracy. Again, I don't remember if it was like this before the barrel was reamed, but I don't recall being this shocked at the inaccuracy before the barrel was reamed. So, I'm thinking it is. I know pretty much everyone here has said that barrel reaming hasn't affected accuracy, but I wish I could report the same. The barrel shooting to the right, though, I think was always there.

 

I don't really know what to think anymore. I'm going to give Century Arms a call and see what they say. I honestly think I have a bad barrel before the reaming was even done. Other than what I've said above, the Freedomsmith trigger and Sprinco springs are fantastic. Double-tapping is very easy. No other issues to report.

[BradNC]

All this makes me want to stay on my TP9SFx, which had problems too, but I've resolved them. I'm not in the mood to "debug" another Canik. And yeah, that Sprinco kit is great, I won't part with mine. After polishing my trigger assembly (safety plunger mainly) the Freedomsmith trigger action is excellent.

[Seanzky]

I just want to give an update on this and apologize if I may have thrown Patriot Defense and Canik under the bus with my previous post... that wasn't my intention. I was just thinking outloud as I did troubleshooting.

 

This could very well be user error. I don't know for sure yet, but I will test tomorrow to confirm this. Earlier today, my friend asked me to change out the red dot (maybe it's faulty) and so I decided to look closely. I noticed that the right screw was higher than the left. I tried to see if the red dot would move and it did! While it did not wiggle, all loosey goosey, it was definitely not on tight. I used Loctite (blue) and I thought I put enough torque. I guess I didn't! Anyway, I remounted the adapter plate and this time I used Vibra-Tite. Then I mounted the red dot, this time also using Vibra-Tite. Before doing that, I wiped down both screws thoroughly and cleaned them with rubbing alcohol.

 

I'll test again tomorrow and report back. If this was the issue all along, I'm not ashamed to say I f'd up. In fact, I'll be very, very glad if it's not the gun and it was me. Lol.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Seanzky

[WxGuy]

We all have our "moments"!  Don't worry!!

[partyboy424]

21 hours ago, Seanzky said:

I just want to give an update on this and apologize if I may have thrown Patriot Defense and Canik under the bus with my previous post... that wasn't my intention. I was just thinking outloud as I did troubleshooting.

 

This could very well be user error. I don't know for sure yet, but I will test tomorrow to confirm this. Earlier today, my friend asked me to change out the red dot (maybe it's faulty) and so I decided to look closely. I noticed that the right screw was higher than the left. I tried to see if the red dot would move and it did! While it did not wiggle, all loosey goosey, it was definitely not on tight. I used Loctite (blue) and I thought I put enough torque. I guess I didn't! Anyway, I remounted the adapter plate and this time I used Vibra-Tite. Then I mounted the red dot, this time also using Vibra-Tite. Before doing that, I wiped down both screws thoroughly and cleaned them with rubbing alcohol.

 

I'll test again tomorrow and report back. If this was the issue all along, I'm not ashamed to say I f'd up. In fact, I'll be very, very glad if it's not the gun and it was me. Lol.

Had the same thing happen at a match in the beginning of the year. My M&P’s SCS loosened up big time. Didn’t figure out until I went to turn it off after the last stage.  4 stages of everyone watching me miss everything. 

[Seanzky]

9 hours ago, partyboy424 said:

Had the same thing happen at a match in the beginning of the year. My M&P’s SCS loosened up big time. Didn’t figure out until I went to turn it off after the last stage.  4 stages of everyone watching me miss everything. 

Hahaha. What a nightmare! I'd self-disqualify if that happened to me. LOL.

[Seanzky]

So, I just got back from the range... I took it out to 15 yards max, but my friend and fellow competitor was with me. I mention that because then I was able to verify the accuracy and zero and my friend was able to reverify as well.

 

My Rival-S is near perfect. No issues other than the two times the first round got stuck on the feed ramp. I'm also a bit worried about the holster replacement coming in because the first one I bought was too tight for my Darkside. But these issues are off-topic...

 

Anyway... the barrel is accurate. I'd say it's pretty close and comparable to a stock Gen5 Glock "Marksman Barrel", which I find very accurate. I zeroed the gun at home with my two bore sights and one laser target. When we got to the range, the gun was dead on and needed no further adjustments. I confirmed my zero with live ammo at 7, 10 and then 15 yards, and I realized there was no need to take it out further. The gun was grouping really well, too! I'm so glad I can put this thread to rest. It was my fault all along!

[Signal7]

On 11/7/2023 at 10:49 PM, Seanzky said:

So, I just got back from the range... I took it out to 15 yards max, but my friend and fellow competitor was with me. I mention that because then I was able to verify the accuracy and zero and my friend was able to reverify as well.

 

My Rival-S is near perfect. No issues other than the two times the first round got stuck on the feed ramp.  [...]

 

This is good news and I for one am glad to see you followed up and owned up.  Mistakes happen and you're a stand up guy for standing corrected.  Kudos to you, good Sir.

[Seanzky]

5 minutes ago, Signal7 said:

 

This is good news and I for one am glad to see you followed up and owned up.  Mistakes happen and you're a stand up guy for standing corrected.  Kudos to you, good Sir.

I wouldn't want someone to happen across these forums and think that a Rival-S had such a problem. It's a fantastic competition pistol even when compared to other nice ones I own.