Make your Rival S reliable

[partyboy424]

Going to start my own Upgrades thread for the Canik Rival-S.  I've been jumping into other threads and testing out random theories.  Until this weekend.  I basically bought every possible part that could be causing a reliability issue with the Rival-S. 

 

Issues resolved include: 

-Slide Locking Back before last round fired

-Random or consistent Out Of Battery

-Failure To Extract usually tied with a Stovepipe

 

 

Starting with the easiest issue which every single Rival-S owner can recreate.  The slide locking back due to a magazine over insertion. This actually can be forced on all TP9s I've tried it on,  but it is most pronounced on a Rival-S,  especially with aftermarket basepads.  I'm shooting this in Production and am currently running Taylor Freelance +0 basepads.  The simplest fix for me was to add two O-Rings to the magazine that sit right above the basepad.  Found on Amazon:  uxcell Nitrile Rubber O-Rings 32mm OD 27mm ID 2.5mm Width.

 

I would honestly recommend that zero people buy a +0 basepad from anyone until this is fixed.  For me,  the O-rings have zero negative effect. Can't tell they're there,  they don't cause anything to jam,  they work absolutely perfectly.  However,  I also picked up a new Henning +4 basepad.  This also solves the over insertion issue.  It has lips that take up the same space as the O-rings did. I can't imagine all the basepad manufacturers won't have an updated basepad in +0 and +4 by the end of the year. 

 

The other two issues of Out Of Battery (OOB) and Failure To Extract (FTE) are actually tied to each other.  It (at least with my gun) has zero to do with the barrel, feed ramp or chamber.  There's two main issues.  First,  the striker spring is ridiculous.  I don't know the actual stock weight,  but it must be 7.5 pounds or more?  It's just insanely overpowered and is winning the battle against the recoil spring.  And this striker assembly is the same across all the TP9 models.  So, you can go and read years of reports of broken strikers from overpowered springs.  As an example,  what most people consider to be the "reliable" striker firearm.  A Glock, uses a 5.5 pound spring.  A reduced power spring for a Canik is 6.5.  I'll go into detail later, but long story short, just go get a 6.5 pound striker spring.

 

Second issue is the extractor.  And this may be a barrel or lockup issue.  I'm not exactly sure from what I could measure, how the spent casing was able to jump off of the extractor.  But, with a stock striker spring,  certain ammo will get punched off of the extractor.  You'll fire, the striker will punch the casing off the extractor, the extractor will still be on the lip of the rim so it will pull the empty casing halfway out before it loses grip and then you will get a stovepipe. This will not happen with any ammo on a 6.5 pound striker spring.  To test this I originally replaced only the stock extractor spring with a shorter weakened one (cut it from 8.4mm to 8mm in length) and all of my ammo that I assume has the hardest primers and had issues on a stock setup were just magnified with the weakened extractor.

 

My worry was that as the 6.5 pound striker broke in and the stock extractor broke in,  that I would start running into issues again.  So I put my stock extractor spring in with a Glock 5.5 pound striker spring and recorded results with that as well.  Across about 100 different spring and ammo combinations and zero cleaning of the firearm over about 800 rounds.  I could not force a light primer strike.  There is also a guy Keith who sells springs for a Walther steel frame that are extra power extractor springs.  I assumed he was just selling CZ75 XP springs for a markup, but I bought those too and his are actually shorter.  I could force issues with CZ extra powered springs on certain ammo with different recoil springs, but I didn't get to test as much as I wanted with Keith's spring.  Also I want to try cutting down each spring since they are each about 2mm longer than a stock spring.

 

Next week I'll be posting up a spreadsheet of all my tests between 5.5, 6.5, and stock striker springs.  14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 pound recoil springs and shortened extractor, stock, shortened cz, shortened keith and stock cz, stock keith.  I've tested with Fenix 147, CCI 124, S&B 115, Federal Training 147 Flat point, Patriot Defense 124, Fiocchi Ranger 115, Remington 115, Winchester 115, Sig 115, Herters 115, Belom 124.  The Fenix is the only one I haven't thoroughly tested on my most likely most reliable setup.  Fenix is downloaded to 900FPS for USPSA and they were backordered.  I just got some more, but won't get to the range with it till next week.

Right now I can run EVERY SINGLE one of the ammo's listed with jam packed 18 round mags in a clean or dirty gun with the following setup:

 

16 pound Wolf Recoil Spring on an uncaptured Glock rod

6.5 pound striker spring from NDZ

Keith's extra power extractor spring or stock extractor spring (I just don't have enough rounds on the stock to ensure that it won't start slipping after another 2-3k rounds)

 

As a side note,  I got the W74 Guide Rod and Commander springs.  The W74 rod hangs up somewhere and it messed up the lug on my barrel.  Also when I try to take down the gun, it won't take down.  I have to remove the striker to get it to come apart.  This is only with the W74 guide rod.  Not sure if it's something specific to my gun, but I would not buy one again.  I don't notice any real recoil difference either way.

 

I also have a Disruptive Defense Mag Catch on the way.  They don't claim it will have any effect on mag over insertion and I doubt it will.  But, I've read of multiple reports of broken mag catches,  so figured I might as well go with a stainless one now.  Especially with all the dry fire and how often I'm slamming mags into the gun. 

 

Only negative of my setup for some shooters that I consider a feature.  Mainly because I always competed with M&Ps and even on the 2.0's removed the tab they put in to re-enable my favorite "feature".  The Auto Forward during a full mag insertion.  With a 16lb Recoil spring and a 6.5 pound striker spring.  My Rival Auto Forwards on anything loaded above 9 rounds.  This is a huge benefit in my eyes and was one of the biggest reasons I didn't want to step away from my M&Ps when getting into this setup.

[glocklover]

Great info!! Thanks. 

[OklahomaJim]

Thanks for the post!  My NDZ striker spring should be here Monday.

[Jayko]

To add another data point.

 

I have the w74 + 14lbs Commander spring and 29N striker spring and this combo seems to run flawlessly on my gun. I tried 13 but it was noticeably sluggish and 14 performed better than 15 for me.

 

The biggest change I've seen is with the springs+followers when shooting mags with +4 baseplates. I have the mbx spring+follower installed and it appears to address my issue of occasional FTF when shooting 147s. 

 

I never ran into FTE issues and haven't touched the extractor. Your mileage may vary but the above works for me.

[C_Train89]

Can you post pics of the springs lined up next to each other? Curious to see your results. I sold my Rival S but the new owner is still struggling with the FTE's. Until Canik starts selling the S extractor springs im going to have to get him to try one of the other springs.

[partyboy424]

1 hour ago, C_Train89 said:

Can you post pics of the springs lined up next to each other? Curious to see your results. I sold my Rival S but the new owner is still struggling with the FTE's. Until Canik starts selling the S extractor springs im going to have to get him to try one of the other springs.

Doesn't look like I can edit my original post.   But below is my reliable setup.  I still am planning to post test results at some point.  I just wrote them on paper and haven't had time to put them into a spreadsheet.  Measuring springs won't show much since most my springs are used at this point and they all shrink,  but I've included skus.

 

If you have a Failure to Feed, Failure to Extract, Out of Battery issue. You can fix it easily with these springs.

Go Here: https://www.gunsprings.com/GLOCK+%C2%AE/cID1/mID5/dID116

Order these:

Sku 50015 (15 pound recoil spring and Guide Rod that comes with a 5.5 striker spring)

Sku 43716 (16 Pound recoil spring comes with 5.5 striker spring)

Sku 43718 (18 Pound recoil spring comes with 5.5 striker spring)

Sku 32248 (3 pack of 6 pound striker springs)

Then go over to here: https://www.gunsprings.com/CZ/75+Series/cID1/mID16/dID91#841

Order this:

Sku 32011 ( Extra power CZ Extractor spring 3 pack) Take a dremel and cut off the top coil (.6mm) (The cut end goes towards the frame)

That's it, Put in the 6 pound striker spring and the CZ extractor spring and that will solve ALL FEEDING ISSUES. Choose a 15-18 recoil spring for preference.

Mag over insertion issue.

Order Henning +4 pads, wait for +0, wait for TF, contact Canik and get updated pads or get two 2.5mm orings and stack them. Found on amazon search this:

uxcell Nitrile Rubber O-Rings 32mm OD 27mm ID 2.5mm Width, Metric Nitrile Rubber Sealing Gasket for Automotive Machine Plumbing, Pack of 10

 

That's it. Extractor, striker, appropriate recoil spring and mag o-ring or aftermarket basepad. I'm at 100 percent reliability with that combo.

[partyboy424]

Here you go. I cut not even an entire circle of an end coil. Takes the XP extractor spring from 10mm to 9.4mm.  (They don’t come red, I Dye them because I have so many damn springs rolling around)

[jsoupene]

Thanks for sharing all this great info.

 

I'm having this issue. Tried different mag components. (Gram & mbx followers, henning +4 base pads, mecgar tubes, gram springs, even bought one of the new mbx mags 23/24 rd mag), different bullet profile, different OAL. Running 15lb commander with w74 guide rod but it's nose dived enough and really stuck in there. I don't think it would matter how heavy of recoil spring you had. Usually happens on a fuller mag but doesn't have to be completely full, even happens on half full sometimes Any ideas? Pulling my hair. It's to the point where i can't shoot it at a match anymore. 

[partyboy424]

I was using Federal Training 147 which has that same profile and did the same thing.  The Rival hates flat point anything. I initially got them to run better by clipping a spring on the extractor, but then I ran into FTE.  Basically with that ammo now, I run stock or higher extractor spring, 5.5 Glock striker and 18 pound recoil to just slam it home.  How many rounds do you have through yours? I also noticed that federal ammo specifically acts up way way less even when I’ve had everything back to stock now that I’ve got 3,000 or so rounds through it.  

[Zincwarrior]

Sorry I am behind the curve. Are stock Rival-S's having reliability issues? 

[partyboy424]

11 minutes ago, Zincwarrior said:

Sorry I am behind the curve. Are stock Rival-S's having reliability issues? 

Yes, stock extractor spring too weak, striker too strong and finicky without the appropriate recoil spring for the ammo. Flat point and certain ammo (like Fiocchi) need a stronger than stock recoil spring, where some ammo like cci 124 can run fine with 2 or even 3 pounds below stock recoil weight. 

[Zincwarrior]

Thank you for the clarification on the issues. 

[OklahomaJim]

I must have gotten lucky with my Rival-S.  It eats everything I feed it including my 124 Berry FP reloads.  It did have an occasional lazy return to battery, but I'm hoping the reduced power striker spring fixes that.

 

I really like this pistol and I'm still amazed how well it shoots.  Quite a bargain for the money so far.

[partyboy424]

14 hours ago, OklahomaJim said:

I must have gotten lucky with my Rival-S.  It eats everything I feed it including my 124 Berry FP reloads.  It did have an occasional lazy return to battery, but I'm hoping the reduced power striker spring fixes that.

 

I really like this pistol and I'm still amazed how well it shoots.  Quite a bargain for the money so far.

Yeah out of battery is by far my most common issue across all brands of ammo. Reduced striker spring fixes it. 

[jsoupene]

18 hours ago, partyboy424 said:

I was using Federal Training 147 which has that same profile and did the same thing.  The Rival hates flat point anything. I initially got them to run better by clipping a spring on the extractor, but then I ran into FTE.  Basically with that ammo now, I run stock or higher extractor spring, 5.5 Glock striker and 18 pound recoil to just slam it home.  How many rounds do you have through yours? I also noticed that federal ammo specifically acts up way way less even when I’ve had everything back to stock now that I’ve got 3,000 or so rounds through it.  

I have around 2500ish through it. What was weird was it ran perfectly the first 1000. I will try some more round nose again and see what happens. Plus I haven't tried them with the MBX mag. It definitely fits a lot tighter then my others. Thanks again!

Edited August 25, 2023 by jsoupene

[glocklover]

On 8/22/2023 at 9:57 PM, partyboy424 said:

Doesn't look like I can edit my original post.   But below is my reliable setup.  I still am planning to post test results at some point.  I just wrote them on paper and haven't had time to put them into a spreadsheet.  Measuring springs won't show much since most my springs are used at this point and they all shrink,  but I've included skus.

 

If you have a Failure to Feed, Failure to Extract, Out of Battery issue. You can fix it easily with these springs.

Go Here: https://www.gunsprings.com/GLOCK+%C2%AE/cID1/mID5/dID116

Order these:

Sku 50015 (15 pound recoil spring and Guide Rod that comes with a 5.5 striker spring)

Sku 43716 (16 Pound recoil spring comes with 5.5 striker spring)

Sku 43718 (18 Pound recoil spring comes with 5.5 striker spring)

Sku 32248 (3 pack of 6 pound striker springs)

Then go over to here: https://www.gunsprings.com/CZ/75+Series/cID1/mID16/dID91#841

Order this:

Sku 32011 ( Extra power CZ Extractor spring 3 pack) Take a dremel and cut off the top coil (.6mm) (The cut end goes towards the frame)

That's it, Put in the 6 pound striker spring and the CZ extractor spring and that will solve ALL FEEDING ISSUES. Choose a 15-18 recoil spring for preference.

Mag over insertion issue.

Order Henning +4 pads, wait for +0, wait for TF, contact Canik and get updated pads or get two 2.5mm orings and stack them. Found on amazon search this:

uxcell Nitrile Rubber O-Rings 32mm OD 27mm ID 2.5mm Width, Metric Nitrile Rubber Sealing Gasket for Automotive Machine Plumbing, Pack of 10

 

That's it. Extractor, striker, appropriate recoil spring and mag o-ring or aftermarket basepad. I'm at 100 percent reliability with that combo.

Awesome advise!!!! I just shot 200 rounds. Not one failure. Thank you so much!

[partyboy424]

On 9/3/2023 at 12:31 PM, glocklover said:

Awesome advise!!!! I just shot 200 rounds. Not one failure. Thank you so much!

Thanks for the feedback. Would you mind posting what you used for ammo (brand and weight), and the spring or any other changes you made?  I'm always chasing a better way to make all my firearms more reliable.  And specifically with this one,  shooting USPSA,  it NEEDS to be reliable.

[glocklover]

Ammo-I shoot 125 gr blue round nose bullets. Range picked up brass with whatever powder and primers I can find. OAL 1.120

 

I changed three springs. The recoil spring to a 16 lbs. The strikers spring to a Glock 6 lbs spring. The extractor spring to a CZ extra power spring with 0.6 cut off.

 

Works great!

[JDalton203]

This solved a lot of my issues thanks! Great thread 

[pinoybug]

On 8/24/2023 at 10:17 AM, jsoupene said:

Thanks for sharing all this great info.

 

I'm having this issue. Tried different mag components. (Gram & mbx followers, henning +4 base pads, mecgar tubes, gram springs, even bought one of the new mbx mags 23/24 rd mag), different bullet profile, different OAL. Running 15lb commander with w74 guide rod but it's nose dived enough and really stuck in there. I don't think it would matter how heavy of recoil spring you had. Usually happens on a fuller mag but doesn't have to be completely full, even happens on half full sometimes Any ideas? Pulling my hair. It's to the point where i can't shoot it at a match anymore. 

Had the same issue with RMR 135 GR truncated cone. This after running reliably on3k+ of the same

ammo.

i had mbx follower and spring and rune tactical follower + some other spring on henning +4 basepad and TF +4. What fixed your issue?

[Carrera]

On 8/14/2023 at 11:41 PM, partyboy424 said:

Going to start my own Upgrades thread for the Canik Rival-S.  I've been jumping into other threads and testing out random theories.  Until this weekend.  I basically bought every possible part that could be causing a reliability issue with the Rival-S. 

 

Issues resolved include: 

-Slide Locking Back before last round fired

-Random or consistent Out Of Battery

-Failure To Extract usually tied with a Stovepipe

 

 

Starting with the easiest issue which every single Rival-S owner can recreate.  The slide locking back due to a magazine over insertion. This actually can be forced on all TP9s I've tried it on,  but it is most pronounced on a Rival-S,  especially with aftermarket basepads.  I'm shooting this in Production and am currently running Taylor Freelance +0 basepads.  The simplest fix for me was to add two O-Rings to the magazine that sit right above the basepad.  Found on Amazon:  uxcell Nitrile Rubber O-Rings 32mm OD 27mm ID 2.5mm Width.

 

I would honestly recommend that zero people buy a +0 basepad from anyone until this is fixed.  For me,  the O-rings have zero negative effect. Can't tell they're there,  they don't cause anything to jam,  they work absolutely perfectly.  However,  I also picked up a new Henning +4 basepad.  This also solves the over insertion issue.  It has lips that take up the same space as the O-rings did. I can't imagine all the basepad manufacturers won't have an updated basepad in +0 and +4 by the end of the year. 

 

The other two issues of Out Of Battery (OOB) and Failure To Extract (FTE) are actually tied to each other.  It (at least with my gun) has zero to do with the barrel, feed ramp or chamber.  There's two main issues.  First,  the striker spring is ridiculous.  I don't know the actual stock weight,  but it must be 7.5 pounds or more?  It's just insanely overpowered and is winning the battle against the recoil spring.  And this striker assembly is the same across all the TP9 models.  So, you can go and read years of reports of broken strikers from overpowered springs.  As an example,  what most people consider to be the "reliable" striker firearm.  A Glock, uses a 5.5 pound spring.  A reduced power spring for a Canik is 6.5.  I'll go into detail later, but long story short, just go get a 6.5 pound striker spring.

 

Second issue is the extractor.  And this may be a barrel or lockup issue.  I'm not exactly sure from what I could measure, how the spent casing was able to jump off of the extractor.  But, with a stock striker spring,  certain ammo will get punched off of the extractor.  You'll fire, the striker will punch the casing off the extractor, the extractor will still be on the lip of the rim so it will pull the empty casing halfway out before it loses grip and then you will get a stovepipe. This will not happen with any ammo on a 6.5 pound striker spring.  To test this I originally replaced only the stock extractor spring with a shorter weakened one (cut it from 8.4mm to 8mm in length) and all of my ammo that I assume has the hardest primers and had issues on a stock setup were just magnified with the weakened extractor.

 

My worry was that as the 6.5 pound striker broke in and the stock extractor broke in,  that I would start running into issues again.  So I put my stock extractor spring in with a Glock 5.5 pound striker spring and recorded results with that as well.  Across about 100 different spring and ammo combinations and zero cleaning of the firearm over about 800 rounds.  I could not force a light primer strike.  There is also a guy Keith who sells springs for a Walther steel frame that are extra power extractor springs.  I assumed he was just selling CZ75 XP springs for a markup, but I bought those too and his are actually shorter.  I could force issues with CZ extra powered springs on certain ammo with different recoil springs, but I didn't get to test as much as I wanted with Keith's spring.  Also I want to try cutting down each spring since they are each about 2mm longer than a stock spring.

 

Next week I'll be posting up a spreadsheet of all my tests between 5.5, 6.5, and stock striker springs.  14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 pound recoil springs and shortened extractor, stock, shortened cz, shortened keith and stock cz, stock keith.  I've tested with Fenix 147, CCI 124, S&B 115, Federal Training 147 Flat point, Patriot Defense 124, Fiocchi Ranger 115, Remington 115, Winchester 115, Sig 115, Herters 115, Belom 124.  The Fenix is the only one I haven't thoroughly tested on my most likely most reliable setup.  Fenix is downloaded to 900FPS for USPSA and they were backordered.  I just got some more, but won't get to the range with it till next week.

Right now I can run EVERY SINGLE one of the ammo's listed with jam packed 18 round mags in a clean or dirty gun with the following setup:

 

16 pound Wolf Recoil Spring on an uncaptured Glock rod

6.5 pound striker spring from NDZ

Keith's extra power extractor spring or stock extractor spring (I just don't have enough rounds on the stock to ensure that it won't start slipping after another 2-3k rounds)

 

As a side note,  I got the W74 Guide Rod and Commander springs.  The W74 rod hangs up somewhere and it messed up the lug on my barrel.  Also when I try to take down the gun, it won't take down.  I have to remove the striker to get it to come apart.  This is only with the W74 guide rod.  Not sure if it's something specific to my gun, but I would not buy one again.  I don't notice any real recoil difference either way.

 

I also have a Disruptive Defense Mag Catch on the way.  They don't claim it will have any effect on mag over insertion and I doubt it will.  But, I've read of multiple reports of broken mag catches,  so figured I might as well go with a stainless one now.  Especially with all the dry fire and how often I'm slamming mags into the gun. 

 

Only negative of my setup for some shooters that I consider a feature.  Mainly because I always competed with M&Ps and even on the 2.0's removed the tab they put in to re-enable my favorite "feature".  The Auto Forward during a full mag insertion.  With a 16lb Recoil spring and a 6.5 pound striker spring.  My Rival Auto Forwards on anything loaded above 9 rounds.  This is a huge benefit in my eyes and was one of the biggest reasons I didn't want to step away from my M&Ps when getting into this setup.

Hello,

     I am just joining this conversation, as I bought my Rival two months ago and it decided to have “light primer strikes” that were off-center (thinking out of battery), so I ordered the assortment of springs, except failed to get an uncaptured guide rod! 
 

Does anyone have the model of Glock or p/n for the correct guide rod? 

[BradNC]

I was going to post something I discovered that might be useful here too. I'll be brief (if possible) but it might not apply to the Rival S. On my TP9SFx that's a few years old now I tried a few times to run a lighter striker spring and I always got light primer strikes. I tried a 6# Glock spring and a Sprinco 29N striker spring. I recently talked with Alan of Sprinco about his system and whether it would work with the Canik stock (~16#) striker spring and he said no, it would not. But he also said the 29N striker spring should definitely work in my TP9SFx. So, I pulled out a new striker assembly I had bought as a failure backup and looked at the firing pins of these two. The newer striker firing pin shape is DIFFERENT than what came in my TP9SFx from the factory. I put the Sprinco 29N striker spring into the new striker and it WORKS as expected! Problem solved. Maybe this info is useful in your case (maybe not though, but you just don't know what Canik is assembling into their products before they ship).

[Degnan]

FYI, my Rival-S started to experience frequent FTE issues after a few thousand rounds.  I sent the barrel to Patriot Defense for their barrel reaming service.  No FTEs issues for the last 2k rounds.  

Patriot Defense 9mm Barrel Reaming Service (PD-TF-Ream)

[Seanzky]

19 hours ago, Degnan said:

FYI, my Rival-S started to experience frequent FTE issues after a few thousand rounds.  I sent the barrel to Patriot Defense for their barrel reaming service.  No FTEs issues for the last 2k rounds.  

Patriot Defense 9mm Barrel Reaming Service (PD-TF-Ream)

I thought someone said it was $60 for their service? Is it really only $40?! And is this service for any barrel or do I have to ask for something else specific to the Rival-S?

 

Is it not this service?

https://patriotdefense.com/patriot-defense-9mm-barrel-reaming-hard-coating-melonite-dlc/

Edited October 22, 2023 by Seanzky

[partyboy424]

On 10/17/2023 at 7:47 PM, Carrera said:

Hello,

     I am just joining this conversation, as I bought my Rival two months ago and it decided to have “light primer strikes” that were off-center (thinking out of battery), so I ordered the assortment of springs, except failed to get an uncaptured guide rod! 
 

Does anyone have the model of Glock or p/n for the correct guide rod? 

Sorry, been on vacation and not checking posts. If you’ve tried all my spring recommendations (specifically the lightened striker spring and CZ extractor spring) and are still getting light strikes. It could be your actual firing pin.  On mine, after a couple thousand rounds, I realized that the firing pin is still making a little bit of contact with the striker block. And you can see the metal peening over on the firing pin.  Just a couple quick swipes with a file and you’re good to go. It won’t affect safety, it’s literally just a hair that is enough to cause an out of battery regardless of spring combo.  I won’t be back until next week, but I can make a quick video then or what I’m talking about. 
 

for the guide Rod, I believe I posted it a couple posts down in this thread.  Just a basic Glock 17 Rod. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by partyboy424
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