United States Action Pistol Association

[Action Pistolero]

A new organization called the United States Action Pistol Association has been started. In my opinion, all of us interested in ICASE need to support this Assoc. instead of having two organizations trying to do the same thing. This Assoc. makes it's home at the US Shooting Academy in Tulsa, OK.

I talked to Tom Fee tonight and we seem to be on the same page as far as where we want Action Pistol to go. He wants to know if we, in the grass roots portion of the sport, would support the Assoc. like we have the NRA. I talked to him about shooters paying yearly dues and a portion of the match fees in return for a classification system and actual promotion of our sport. It seems to me that this is a win win situation for us and we can get back to shooting action pistol the way that brought us into this sport in the first place.

Tom already has plans for a National match along with match that runs you through the course of fire 3 times. He also has plans for a "Triple Crown" meaning a shooter shoots an IPSC match, the full Steel Challenge and the full Action Pistol course to determine the winner.

So let your opinions be known. Vote in the poll and add your questions and comments here.

Kevin

[Matt Cheely]

The idea of a "Triple Crown" is interesting.

I like it! Even if I've never shot steel or action pistol...

[claude]

Hell yes! More guns..... More fun

[Brundoggie]

Before I can render an opinion, I need more info such as:

a. What is the stated mission/focus of this organization?

b. What will this organization do that isn't already done by existing organizations?

c. How does having another classification program/system enhance the sport?

d. (Showing my ignorance here.) What is ICASE and what do they do?

Looking forward to more info, thanks!

[Alan550]

Brundoggie,

To start with your last question first, ICASE was started last year by a few of us who were, and are disenchanted with the direction that NRA is taking AP shooting. Their rule changes are killing the sport and driving away shooters, so we proposed to start another organization using mostly the older rules to keep interest alive.

Having another classification system set up will make it easier for the Nationals shooters to shoot on the same level as they have at their home ranges. Initially, the NRA cards would probably be honored, but for new unclassified shooters, this will get them classified before going to the Nationals, as well as providing some minimal funding for administrative costs. The NRA already charges $4.50 per shooter in sanctioned matches, so there's little change in that aspect of it.

The mission (and I DON'T speak for Tom Fee here!) is to try to bring more shooters into Action Pistol shooting and promote the sport by being more shooter friendly than NRA is at present. The NRA ignores the shooters' wishes and arbitrarily makes rule changes that have driven many from the ranks of AP shooting in the last few years

IMHO, this is one of the best things to happen to AP in years, if Mr. Fee can make this work, and I honestly believe that he CAN! He has the facility and the dedication to make it work for us.

Alan~^~

[BigDave]

Yes. Yes. Yes. Sign me up.

This sounds fantastic. Unfortunately, I've only shot Bianchi for 3 years, which means I've shot under a new set of rules every year. But the thing that intrigues me here is the grass roots approach. I really don't care what it's called so long as people show up and shoot because action pistol shooting is the single greatest test of overall handgun marksmanship, period. The problem with the NRA running AP is that the politics of the organization trump the needs of the shooters. Ironic and detrimental? Guilty on both counts.

BTW - I still plan on shooting at Bianchi in May. Just let me know when I need to be in Tulsa.

[Kimberkid]

It sounds like Mr. Fee has the resources to do this right, and if Kevin says he has the right idea, I'll fall in line too.

3 times through a Cup match to decide a winner? No, not only no, but hell no. 192 rounds, 1 time on each event, 1 try, if you screw up, that was your shot and you blew it. I dig that it is an attempt to make everyone shoot well more consistently, but I aint down for it. You get one go around, not a couple of warm ups that still count for score. You gotta get the points, and get em cold. Wanna shoot through 3 times with different guns for different divisions? Cool, go ahead.

Wanna combine Steel Challenge and an IPSC match with it, fine, but make it a totally seperate match. If you combine Bianchi/ICASE/USAPA National Championships with that other stuff, you lose the beauty of the "Cup". While finding an all around handgun champ is cool, lets not lose sight of these sports as seperate. Sometimes I wanna shoot IPSC, sometimes Bianchi, sometimes Steel, and all 3 could be cool, but you still gotta keep a separate Nationals for each.

I'd be down with this idea big time, so long as we keep Bianchi as it was in the good old days, which it sounds like it kinda is, and kinda aint.

We all complained cuz the NRA changed things, now we are suggesting a few changes.... Lets put it back how it should be.

[Action Pistolero]

Mike,

I believe that you are a little confused. The Triple Crown is a seperate match all together.

The part about running through the courses of fire three times is an idea that Doug had. You would shoot the four courses each day for three days. You wouldn't take the best score for your final score but add all three together. That would make the highest possible score 5760- 576x. My opinion was that it wouldn't make any difference in who finished at the top.

This format does however has advantages. To shoot all four stages in one day for three days would be a gruelling match. There would be a lot more shooting instead of the old shoot a course and then spend the rest of the day at the practice range. It could also be done like Golf were you had to shoot a qualifying score to shoot the next day. I still believe the best way to handle it is to add one or two of the oddball courses to the aggregate. This way a shooter that only shoots the four Cup courses still needs to be able to adapt to different courses of fire instead of being proficient at only four. Quite frankly, I get bored shooting the same four courses all the time. This way the goal of the shooter would be to be able to adapt to different scenarios instead of striving for that 1920-192x.

The Bianchi Cup used to be a challenging course of fire for all competitors. We have often heard of the bonus that was given to the shooter that first shot a 1910. Of course after 28 years of shooting the same four courses that challenge is not as great as it used to be. Now the challenge is more about who can stand the pressure not gun handling skills. I believe that to make the sport grow there needs to be some changes made to the courses fired in the aggregate so that those shooters that are bored with it can find a reason to come back. I mentioned this idea to Brian one time and he sounded positive about it.

Kevin

[SRT Driver]

This sounds great!!

The 4 main COF's and another one in the book is a good idea. I don't know if I like the "average" of 3 runs on the 4 main Bianchi COF's. A lot of shooting but let's mix it up a bit. The logistics of 200+ ( ) shooters over 12 runs on the COF's might be a little much for the host facility. Can you imagine the back up at the Mover?

The triple crown is an awesome idea.

[Kimberkid]

Kevin,

I understood the idea, I just think it is a bad one. I agree that is gets boring shooting 1 event a day and then wasting away the day, but that is kinda the breaks of this style. We could shoot 3 days in a row, in different divisions. Would it make a difference who finished on top? I dunno, maybe, maybe not.

I also think the "qualifying round" is a very bad idea. I take my weeks vacation to come shoot, tank the first day, and spend the rest of my vacation sitting around? No way I am takin that chance.

I could be down with adding 1 or 2 of the oddballs in, but which ones? If we add 1 that requires a reload, now we got a buncha guys that want to change their set up. I am not nessecarily agianst reloads, but it changes more than the course of fire.

Want more shooting? Use a buncha oddball courses as side matches with a cash payout. $10 per stage, 1 try, pay out 40-30-20 to 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, and put the remaining 10% in the match money pocket.

If the Triple Crown is a total seperate match, that sounds way cool and I'll be there, but dont let it infringe on the AP Nationals.

BC "used" to be challenging? I wont bother getting hot about it, cuz I dont think you meant to insult anyone. However, a lot of us still find it tough. The match has a lot to do with pressure, but a stone face aint gonna put you in the money. You still gotta show up and shoot it. I dont think you meant any harm, but saying it the way you did would be a wicked kick in the nuts to a dedicated AP shooter that didnt know you. Just cuz 1920's have been shot, doesnt mean that anything less is to be ashamed of.

[Action Pistolero]

SRT,

Do you think that there will be a back up on the mover when there are four of them? I don't think so.

Mike,

I said that it used to be challenging for ALL competitors. I didn't say that it's not a challenging sport. You're getting a little sensitive on me.

If you can shoot a 480 on any of the courses in practice then why can't you do it in a match? The answer is pressure. You know that you can do it but you let the pressure of the match distract you and then mistakes start happening. A stone face isn't going to do it. You still have to have the skills in place to perform well.

Reloads do change more than the course of fire. They require the skill to manipulate the pistol in a way to replenish the previous spent ammunition to finish the course of fire. As you know it's done in IPSC all the time. The time limits that are given give ample time for the revolver shooter to complete them and continue firing. I am not familiar with a "setup" that guys would want to change to. My guns all have extended mag releases and there is a mag pouch on every belt. Most shooters that I know simply add a mag pouch to their belt and they're reading to go. If you think about it, it is always a good idea to have a mag pouch on the belt in case you get one of those jams where a mag change would be faster than trying to clear a jam in the mag with it in the gun.

Okay, how about everyone shoot through the 4 courses twice and then qualify for the final round. Those shooters that don't make the cut can watch the best shooters in the world going at it or shoot a bunch of side matches. That's still more shooting than there currently is.

[SRT Driver]

4 Movers!!!??? I..did..not..know..that!! Nevermind.

An elimination match. Cool! Kind of like the World Series of Poker.

Sounds like a great facility. It will be nice to check it out in October or sooner, if something happens in 06 with USAPA before the Open/Prod Nats.

KK can explain his position but I think the reload issue is caused by the prone pads most of us have on our Open guns. Mine is not reload friendly.

[kimmbeckwith]

All I can say is WOW! Now that sounds like a range! I saw somthing just like that in Australia at the world cup and it was great!!! Put me down, and have Tom contact me for idea's that I can take to Margaret Stallings at Zero.

Wow, Tulsa! Now I don't have to drive so 8 hours!

Nice Work TOM! Great ideas on qualifirers Kevin!

I getting all excited again, it's like when I first received my first "Engraved Invitation" for the Cup, and no they don't do that anymore.

Kim M Beckwith

Zero

[Kimberkid]

Kevin,

SRT is right, the prone pad was one issue I had. I dont mind doing reloads at all, but if we are going to start doing things that were never done before at the Cup, it will change the way AP is shot, and people need to know that ahead of time. The time limits may make it possible to reload a reload unfriendly gun in plenty of time, but we all set our guns up to be most beneficial for the match as a whole. Reloading will change gun set up, I garuntee it. I have also never worn a mag pouch on my belt, though I wouldnt mind doing so.

I can agree with you that is used to be challenging for all shooters, it still is. How many guys can run regular 1920's? Maybe 3? To say that it is no longer a challenge for some is an insult to those that go out to every match, try thier best, and still struggle, and it borders very hard on being arrogant, and I know you well enough to know you are not arrogant, so I will just accept that I must not be understanding you correctly and we can let this portion of our discussion fade away.

I aint real excited about any sort of elimination match. Wanna take the top 16 for a shoot off, fine, but not for the regular match. I'm not ever goin to a match where I dont know how many days, or how much shooting I am gonna get in. I think most guys are like myself in that we get 2 or maybe 3 major matches in a year, why should I spend that valuable time when I dont know how much trigger time I will get. An Area IPSC match is a much safer bet. As much as I love this game, watching a round of AP that you didnt qualify for, is gonna be about as exciting as drying paint, growing grass, or counting sand.

The movement broke away from the NRA cuz they were changing everything, now we are making changes. I guess as long as the wishes of the masses are followed, it will be ok. I got all excited cuz I thought we were going back to exactly how the BC used to be, and it turns out that isnt entirely the case.

Sorry if I sounded hostile or rude, I didnt intend to be, these are just my thoughts and opinions and I dont think I am alone in them.

[GrantJ]

Hi all

This all seems to be happening at a fairly quick pace and I am sure there will be plenty of questions. If you check out this site, many of them will be answered:

www.usshootingacademy.com/NEWS_MESSAGE%20TOM%20FEE

While I am excited at the new prospects, I am saddened at the demise of the "Cup" as we know it.

GrantJ

[Action Pistolero]

Mike,

I have always used a prone pad on my guns. I can't do a speed load as fast as my IPSC gun but they are fast enough. If you use a tall pad then you need longer base pads.

If you don't want to watch the final round then that would be the time to shoot side matches. By shooting through twice you have fired 384 rounds for score. That's already double the amount of rounds plus the side matches. How many IPSC matches have that kind of round count? Then there's the time shooting versus the time waiting to shoot dilemma.

The changes we are are trying to make are to try to fix what was wrong with the Cup before all the rule changes. If you think about it, before the rule changes you had to shoot a score in the mid teens to make the top 20. I hate to say it but the rule changes did spread the scores out bit. For the last several years the Cup has been more about seeing friends than the shooting. At the Cup the High Master class is always one of the bigger classes and I'm specifically talking about Open here. We keep losing more and more HM shooters year after year. Like it or not the members of the HM class are a lot of times the ones running the local matches. In my opinion, the HM class shooters are getting bored and then stop shooting AP. Then they stop running matches and everything starts going down hill. This is the way I have felt for a while now. Don't get me wrong. When I won Winamac this year it was one of my greatest accomplishments in my shooting. I believe that a shooter that has progressed as far as they can go, as far as classification is concerned, needs a challenge that can be met. That's where qualifying for the final round comes in. You can say that well, there is the top 16 shootoff. God knows that I have tried but so far have come up just short of it. If you look at the top 16 only as many as 3 names change from year to year. For those that have made it, I'm sure that it gave them a tremendous feeling of pride and accomplishment. A shooter that made the final round would feel like they have accomplished something and give them more incentive to strive harder for the next level which would be the top 16.

Just a little food for thought and I don't mean to offend anyone.

[Kimberkid]

Kevin,

Not offended at all. I guess we just got different ideas, which is fine. As long as the masses are happy, I'll be happy.

Whats up with the match in Berrien Springs? I got 5 Brits coming over and if aint gonna happen, I need to let them know.

[Action Pistolero]

Mike,

I have no idea about the match. At this point I can only assume that they will still shoot. I hope so, anyway. Bruce has been covered up with his business so I probably won't know anything until the new year.

[Kimberkid]

thanks, keep me on the up and up, I told all these guys it was the first ICASE Nationals, and I dont want them spending $4,000 each and their annual vacation if it aint going down.

[BigDave]

Does anyone have dates in mind yet?

[Alan550]

Dave,

Here's the quote from Bruce Morgan that he posted on here in Sept. after the Regional in Bluefield, VA.

"So here's the deal ... the Berrien County Sportsmans Club hosted their first Regional shoot the past spring. We are inviting ALL AP shooters to rally around the 1st ICASE (1997 rules) International Championship in June 21-25, 2006. Several of us talked about this in Bluefield and I put the notion forward to get off the pot! (exuse the example ... I am a plumber by trade)"

That's what was decided then, and to my knowledge, it hasn't changed.

Alan~^~

[gmshtr]

I'll be there, of course. But if you really want to get more shooters involved, especially new ones, there should a REAL Production division for people to compete in based on the IPSC (International) Production rules. NRA calls my STI 6.0 Eagle a production gun! Give me a break. Also, I could see the divisions introducing another problem. Would the shooters be required to use the same gun all the way through? Shouldn't they? I like the idea, but maybe it should be done like an IROC race. Maybe like Michael Bane's "Big Dog" Invitational. Everyone uses the same guns, sights, holsters, and ammo.

I sure wouldn't want to use my 6.0 eagle at the IPSC event, or my Limited gun in Action Shooting. Just giving you some things to think about.

Good luck!

Phil

[Action Pistolero]

Phil,

I'm assuming that you are talking about the "Triple Crown" when you mention using the same gun. When I talked to Tom he mentioned that Open was Open so I would assume that using a different gun for each discipline in the match would be okay. As you know, if you are serious about these disciplines you have a gun set up for each.

When Alan and I were discussing the rules for ICASE we came up with a production rule that pretty much duplicates the IPSC Production rule with the exception of the trigger pull weight. As much as we hated to make a minimum trigger pull we did. I believe it was 4.5 pounds. We were trying cater to Glock. Alan sent Tom a copy of the rules that we came up with so if he uses the Production rules then they will be like you want them.

Kevin

[Precision40]

So is ICARE a mirror image of USPSA? Combination of USPSA, NRA, Bianchi? I'm not exactly seeing what it actually is.

[claude]

What am I seeing here? A 4.5 lb trigger rule, man this sounds just like the NRA! More of the same. Why do it? There are gunsmiths and/or trigger kits to fix the glocks or anything else you might want to shoot. I think you guys are on to something here, but keep it simple. Don't let your mind interfere with what your brain's trying to do. Pure sport. If there's a trigger weight in production, then when the others?

I don't like the qualifiers just because who wants to watch when you can shoot! Will there be class awards? I feel any discipline must attract new shooters. It's core to success.

Looking forward to these matches, sounds like alot of fun. Hell it's only 700 hundred miles fron home.