United States Action Pistol Association

[gm iprod]

The 4.5lb rule would apply to Production Guns as per IPSC Production Class. Keeps the rules simple and stops the arms race. IPSC already wrote the book, so save time and money, keep as many people in the loop as possible, not cut them out.

NOT to Open or Metallic sight. That would be a little annoying. I will be shooting my gun as per the Bianchi Rules anyway as I am not going to risk pissing around and breaking something. I run 2lb in Open and 3lb in Metallic in any case. But that is my choice no one is making me.

If we are going to have a shoot that we can take 3 guns to, then I may have to buy a Production Gun. ie the triple crown. The more shooting I can get done the better. It's a long long way from here to there for us Kiwis and I want to make it worth while.

I am going to the Cup and will be complying with their "rules", I will be shooting Open and Metallic like last year. Shooting 8 matches over three days was interesting. Shooting 12 over the same time frame will be very "interesting" Plus the Cup.

Add in as many odd ball matches as possible, the Cup guns are way specialised and if you want to shoot matches that will challenge that set up, then fine. As long as there is a little leeway for f&*kups. Which I suspect there may be a few.

Anyways, there will be at least three Kiwis at Tulsa, all depending on time and travel arrangements.

Edited December 19, 2005 by gm iprod

[Action Pistolero]

Claude,

Like I said, I didn't want to impose a trigger pull but it came down to money. When I was on the committee the two Glock shooters wrote letters wanting a true production division. Glock wanted a shooter to be able to take an out of the box stock Glock and shoot the match and be competitve. Glock was a Cup sponsor in 2004 but pulled it last year. When you are trying to start something new sponsorship dollars are critical. If you don't like the rule then shoot in the Limited Division. There's something for everyone.

Precision40,

ICASE has joined with USAPA. It is a replacement for NRA Action Pistol. Tom Fee, the owner of the US Shooting Academy, plans on holding matches from all disciplines. The Triple Crown is designed to bring in shooters from IPSC, Steel and A/P.

Kevin

[oldtrooper]

What am I seeing here? A 4.5 lb trigger rule, man this sounds just like the NRA! More of the same. Why do it? There are gunsmiths and/or trigger kits to fix the glocks or anything else you might want to shoot. I think you guys are on to something here, but keep it simple. Don't let your mind interfere with what your brain's trying to do. Pure sport. If there's a trigger weight in production, then when the others?

I don't like the qualifiers just because who wants to watch when you can shoot! Will there be class awards? I feel any discipline must attract new shooters. It's core to success.

Looking forward to these matches, sounds like alot of fun. Hell it's only 700 hundred miles fron home.

[/quot

I agree, keep it simple and straight forward. Open means anything goes that is not unsafe. No restrictions on firing positions

Metallic sights: same as open except no comps or optics. Only notch and post metallic sights adjustable or fixed. No restrictions on firing positions.

Production: Only handguns that can be obtained from the manufacturer ready to shoot. No restrictions on firing positions.

Pick you category and let the shooter solve the problem. Highest score wins as usual.

[Action Pistolero]

Production: Only handguns that can be obtained from the manufacturer ready to shoot. No restrictions on firing positions.

Pick you category and let the shooter solve the problem. Highest score wins as usual.

Exactly. When was the last time that you ever checked a trigger pull right from the factory and it was below two pounds. Never. Production is to bring in new shooters and they don't have to put a lot of money into a gun and be competitive in that class. If they like the game and want a pistol that can really shoot they can spend the money then.

I'm the last person that would impose a trigger pull minimum on anyone. The trigger pull is for Production only and will never become part of any other class if I have anything to do with it. Leroy and I shot an Action Match in Tallahassee on Sat. A great bunch of shooters down there by the way. I set my trigger to lift a 2 pound weight to conform with next years NRA rules. Needless to say it sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Going from a 1 pound to two takes a lot of concentration and trigger finger position on the trigger is critical. Didn't seem to make any difference on the Barricade or the Mover. I threw two eights on the Practical and missed two plates. The plate misses were both at two o'clock from 20 yards. Seemed to be from not enough finger on the trigger.

Kevin

[M118LR]

I do not mean to steal this thread, but if you would like the Bianchi Cup to change then I would replace the Practical event with the International Rapid Fire event. Years ago when this was one of the events there was no one cleaning the Cup. I think if they use this event there might be less CLEAN scores. Just my opinion.

[GrantJ]

Nice thought. I used to use International Rapid Fire as a training discipline. In New Zealand we used to use it as a side match at national events, it was fun. I have personally witnessed a top competitor go prone and clean the two four second strings. Think about, it 4 seconds from the moment the targets turn, hit the ground and put one shot in 5 individual targets before the targets turn away again at 25 yards. Lets see 2.5 seconds for the first shot Hmmm, that's 2.5 seconds for the remaining four.

Seriously it makes a great side match, but I doubt that it would fly for the main event. It is hard enough as it is.

GrantJ

[Allgoodhits]

I'm confused!

The apparent last straw with NRA's AP, and the initiator of ICASE talk came about with the trigger weight issue. Of course other issues, position restrictions pertaining to prone and the grip safety etc were likely other contributors. I have heard many gripe about the NRA fees, yet ICASE is likely to have one. Of course you can not expect to operate ICASE without fees, and likewise with the NRA.

Why then, is ICASE even uttering a trigger weight discussion? I read in a previous post, unless I am mistaken, that some GLOCK discussion about not be able to compete with their 4.5lb trigger in stock/production. I believe the factory "as delivered" trigger weight on a BERETTA is about 5-7lb in single action and 12-15 lb in double action. I don't know exactly, but my guess is that a S&W, SIG, RUGER as "delivered" trigger pull is probably also higher than the GLOCK. Revolvers used in stock/production as "delivered" probably have a double digit trigger pull as well.

So, I am beginning to see a pattern here? The ICASE plan goes to fruition, in a very brief period of time then those ICASE participants, will probably find significant fault with the organization as many have with NRA. Thus a circle of musical chair game in the various shooting organizations has begun. Could it be....that we just like to bitch?

You see, the grass on the other side has to be mowed too. Just something to think about.

On another note. I wish all of you a joyous and safe Holiday Season and New Year and let's not forget those who are not with us to shoot with and gripe with anymore.

Martin

[Action Pistolero]

Martin,

I was wondering how long it would take for you to chime in.

There have been many who wanted a true Production division. The trigger pull issue was just to prevent a "Production" 1911 coming in with a slicked up trigger job coming in at 1 pound. As you know the trigger weight has a lot to do with how the pistol shoots. You can get away with jerking a 1 pound trigger at the shorter distances.

Like I have said before, Production is for those shooters wanting to get into the sport without spending a lot of money and for those who want to shoot guns like the Glock. If you don't like the trigger pull rule then shoot Limited. The nice part of this is that the shooter has a choice. If you don't like the trigger pull then you are not forced to shoot Production. This differs from the way NRA is handling it. Everyone is forced to have the heavier trigger.

Speaking of NRA, has anyone noticed the coverage the Cup received on American Rifleman TV? Hold on to your hats but there were two shows with about 8 min. coverage on each. Grant and Helen Jeavons seemed to be the stars of the shows even though they were not mentioned by name. Yours truly got 3 seconds of fame as well. It looks like Grants letters to NRA about promoting the sport have paid off somewhat even though it's a little too late.

I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. May you all find a new gun under the tree in the morning.

Kevin

Edited December 26, 2005 by Action Pistolero

[gm iprod]

Grant ranting??? Never happen.

As Kevin said, you have the choice.

Make your choice and get to the line.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all.

Edited December 25, 2005 by gm iprod

[Leroy]

Well here is my 2 cents worth.

This was only my 3rd year shooting AP..And my first trip to the cup.

I did shoot 25 matches this year tagging along with Kevin around the country and had a blast!!!

It does seem like there are a lot of local clubs dying out around the country and less intrest in AP shooting from what it was in the past.

Sounds like Tom Fee is spending a bundle in Tulsa building this new range and I think that is great. WE should get behind him because I beleive it will help build more interest in all shooting sports..

The Idea of the USAPA sounds good to me.. the Fee's aren't that much for what we will be getting in return.

I do beleive getting the rules back to the 1997 area would help bring back more of the lost shooters and also help bring in more new shooters as well.

The way the NRA shoved the rules down out throats in MHO is what has turned away a lot of great shooters..

The idea shooting 3 COF"S is a great idea..Maybe take the scores of the first to runs to determine class winners and say maybe 25% go for the gold on the 3 day..

Throw in some different cof's is cool too... if in the match or side matches..

If I take a week and spend that kind of cash man that is a lot more bangs for the bucks

The triple crown is a hot idea also that will make a lot of us get humble real quick.. speaking of myself on that one..

So count me in I am all for the USAPA

Leroy

[gm iprod]

Kevin,

Clear you message box. It may be a little full.