Safety Issues Part 2

[Mark Perez]

Following-up on Flexmoney's thread on a shooter breaking the 180.

Some shooters that crowd a barricade will raise the muzzle vertically to shoot around the opposite side (classifier for instance).

The muzzle has clearly left the 'downrange' orientation and a negligent discharge would send a round into the sky , to land outside the impact area at the least.

(In Phoenix - we had a law enacted "Shannon's Law" - after a young girl was struck in her back yard from a round fired during New Years , iirc.)

If the muzzle breaks the vertical 180 - is it a "muzzle" call or a DQ?

Mark

[Alan Meek]

Following-up on Flexmoney's thread on a shooter breaking the 180.

Some shooters that crowd a barricade will raise the muzzle vertically to shoot around the opposite side (classifier for instance).

The muzzle has clearly left the 'downrange' orientation and a negligent discharge would send a round into the sky , to land outside the impact area at the least.

(In Phoenix - we had a law enacted "Shannon's Law" - after a young girl was struck in her back yard from a round fired during New Years , iirc.)

If the muzzle breaks the vertical 180 - is it a "muzzle" call or a DQ?

Mark

I always was under the guidelines that the 180 is both vertical and horizontol, break it either way and it is a DQ.

Alan

[Carlos]

I agree w/ Alan but I have to add the pointing the gun OVER the berm is not a DQ. Mark wrote:

"The muzzle has clearly left the 'downrange' orientation and a negligent discharge would send a round into the sky , to land outside the impact area at the least."

While I understand the concern, it not possible with current techniques to require all shooters to abide by such a rule. True, the 1999 World Shoot used modified rules for reloads because there were occupied houses located on top of the berm - that was a special circumstance which called for the gun to be pointed either at the berm or lower. Until there is an issue of rounds regularly going over the berm, such a rule would appear unnecessary and overly burdensome (not to mention teaching an unnatural tactic that might get you into trouble in a real situation).

Edited November 22, 2005 by Carlos

[AzShooter]

Mark

Any time the muzzle breaks the 180 rule, up down or sideways it is a DQ. Just having the muzzle point over the berm is not a DQ unless the shoooter actually fires and the round does not strike into a berm.

[Greg Jones]

Mark

Any time the muzzle breaks the 180 rule, up down or sideways it is a DQ. Just having the muzzle point over the berm is not a DQ unless the shoooter actually fires and the round does not strike into a berm.

There is no 180 rule in IDPA, although many (self included) believe there should be one. I did have a shooter break the vertical 180 once and I called muzzle as his finger was well clear of the trigger. It will be interesting to see if anyone has called a DQ (or been DQ'd) for breaking the vertical 180.

[AzShooter]

Thanks Greg. I get so caught up in my other shooting activities sometimes I forget not all rules apply to each.

[revchuck]

Mark - Just as an added thought - many revolver shooters (including me) reload with the barrel straight up, or nearly so. While it's not exactly the same - kinda hard to have an ND with the cylinder out - this is an issue with some folks who want to hold the 180 rule as absolute.

While IDPA doesn't have a "180 rule", many ranges do. On my range, I'd point out that loaded guns will be kept pointed downrange once out of the holster.

[PHolsted]

While IDPA may not have a "180 Rule" we can define muzzle safe points. This allows MD & RO to place these where they deem they need to be. As to the 180 I feel we do need to enforce it just easy to have a AD.

Patrick

[Mayonaise]

I ran an indoor match for a couple of years. I ran a 180 rule vertical and h orizontal. Surrounded by concrete and steel deflectors there is no place for the bullet to go so it was a real concern. I always incorporated that in my safety brief with each new shooter and always addressed it as I saw it when people forgot.

I don't believe in the 180 rule. I believe in muzzle safe points since that opens up the possibilities for COF design.

Mark

[Headshot45]

Mayonaise, I agree....we don't need 180 rules, we need muzzle safe points. In fact, I have made MSP's as little as 90* on some COF's as the targets were pretty much in front of you anyway, and it made for more concise gunhandling.

As to revolvers, and I shoot them as well, there is no 180 infractions during loading(revos need gravity to load) or during unloading(again, gravity) and has been said as much. SO's, or IPSC RO's for that matter, who call "muzzle" on a revo shooter every time he/she does a reload, really needs to be more verse in gun handling skills as this is an accepted practice for this firearm type.

Frank

[Ted Murphy]

When we get a shooter who does the "Sabrina" (remember Charley's Angels?) we give them a warning and talking to. If they do it again, our response gets a bit more serious.

Had a guy at this years nats do it, he told me it was less 'gamey' than pointing it downrange. Too much TV I guess.

Watch some of the big dawg shooters and you'll see their pistol muzzles do point upwards at an angle when they do a TL or Slide Lock Reload. Depending on the berm height and/or the distance of the shooter to the berm, the muzzle sometimes will point over the berm. I've been taught that kind of reload in competition classes FWIW. I've seen SO's really freak out over that one, and others figure that's how they train so it's cool. YMMV there.

Most roundgunners will point the muzzle up when reloading, and I've seen SO's/RO's get nervous about that too, but the cylinder is open and the gun empty, so I never saw any reason to fret about that.

Ted

Edited November 23, 2005 by Ted Murphy

[Carlos]

I think there is some confusion here: the 180 we are talking about STARTS straight up & down, -as in 90 degrees from the ground, or "vertical".

Revchuck: "While IDPA doesn't have a "180 rule", many ranges do. On my range, I'd point out that loaded guns will be kept pointed downrange once out of the holster.

-if you are saying that some ranges will not allow any muzzle points OVER the berm, that is a huge problem for revolver shooters (and most everyone else too) since ejecting the casings requires a combo of a the ejector and gravity.

Ted Murphy wrote: "I've seen SO's really freak out over that one, and others figure that's how they train so it's cool. YMMV there.

Most roundgunners will point the muzzle up when reloading, and I've seen SO's/RO's get nervous about that too, but the cylinder is open and the gun empty, so I never saw any reason to fret about that."

Agreed.

[Crusher]

In the games often we are running against the clock, with regard to reloads (as well as general muzzle direction) added motion adds time. I, personally, see no need to waste any more motion or time than absoulutley necessary.

Canting a handgun any more than necessary to reload adds time to the reload and I try to avoid wasting time, this would include causing the muzzle to stray away from target arrays that will be engaged immeiately following a reload as well as going any more "vertical" than necessary to acheive a reload.

As far as a DQ for vertical muzzle direction (unless specfically specified by the stage proceedure or description) I have never witnessed or heard of a DQ as long as a round is NOT launched outside the confines of the backstop(s)

[Mayonaise]

When we get a shooter who does the "Sabrina" (remember Charley's Angels?) we give them a warning and talking to. If they do it again, our response gets a bit more serious.

Most roundgunners will point the muzzle up when reloading, and I've seen SO's/RO's get nervous about that too, but the cylinder is open and the gun empty, so I never saw any reason to fret about that.

Ted

Good points Ted. I tend to cant the gun upward during reloads. The key issue is trigger finger control. I haven't see anyone get upset with revo shooters since the cylinder is unlocked barring some extraterestrial intervention a discharge is highly unlikely.

The "Sabrina" effect occurs as a byproduct of TV or crowding cover. Like you said that's an issue easily addressed and something I go over during any new shooter orientation.

That said I was at the 02 nationals and watched a shooter earn his DQ for launching a round over the berm during a reload. He was crowding the barrels and put himself in the position of having to do a Sabrina reload. MD's should take this issue into consideration when designing COF's. Don't force the shooter to crowd cover by designing a stage where if they back out from cover a reasonable amount where they expose themselves to another threat target and get called for a cover violation.

Mark

[Flexmoney]

There is no 180 rule in IDPA, although many (self included) believe there should be one.

Greg, I am pretty sure that a lot of the ranges, themselves, have rules about pointing guns uprange. I think Circleville does. That might be something to work into the match/safety briefing for the IDPA match.