CZ 97 B "E" CGW Conversion

[matteekay]

45 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

When handloaded properly it is, assuming you can grip a pistol.

 

Oh wow. I wonder if the big dogs know this secret? They're all shooting silly old 9mm in the minor-only division.

 

 

44 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

The bushing is not on the inclusive list of approved modifications.  That's why.

 

So, legal insofar as it's required to have a bushing, not legal if you have an SO who's versed enough in CZ's to know that that model didn't originally have it. Willing to bet that it'd be fine at a local but that's up to the OP.

 

Either way, should be fully legal for ESP based on the latest guidance.

[SGT_Schultz]

6 hours ago, matteekay said:

So, legal insofar as it's required to have a bushing,

 

 

Is this IDPA logic?

 

LOL

 

Carry on

[Winston_Smith]

14 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

The bushing is not on the inclusive list of approved modifications.  That's why.

That's how I would read the rules as well.  Which frankly doesn't make any sense.  

[Winston_Smith]

To be clear, at my club I doubt that anyone would care.  I understand someone has been shooting with a CZ Shadow II which is definitely outside the rules on account of weight.  No one would really say anything.  I do appreciate everybody weighing in.

[Winston_Smith]

13 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

Oh wow. I wonder if the big dogs know this secret? They're all shooting silly old 9mm in the minor-only division.

 

 

 

So, legal insofar as it's required to have a bushing, not legal if you have an SO who's versed enough in CZ's to know that that model didn't originally have it. Willing to bet that it'd be fine at a local but that's up to the OP.

 

Either way, should be fully legal for ESP based on the latest guidance.

Definitely legal under the Gentlemen's Agreement.  Let's hope that sticks.  Not for the sake of my pistol but because it just makes more sense.

[matteekay]

6 minutes ago, Winston_Smith said:

Definitely legal under the Gentlemen's Agreement.  Let's hope that sticks.  Not for the sake of my pistol but because it just makes more sense.

 

Agreed. CDP could stand to be a little more flexible as well, but at least it's not as arbitrarily limited as SS in USPSA.

[Jim Watson]

And SSP is not as wild and wooly as "Production" either.

 

I have shot a good deal of .45 Minor in ESP; I have the double stack gun that loads to 10+1 (but I am struggling with magazine "tune" and bullet selection, see thread in Handloading) and I have some 9 round single stack magazines that fit the box*; 9+1 is not a bad handicap, maybe not at all if your MD is unimaginative.  

 

*Don't search the catalogs for 9 shot .45 magazines, most of mine are 10 rounders cut off and the floor plates silver soldered back on.

It is possible to put a CMC 7 to 8 follower and spring kit in an 8 round tube and get it to hold 9, too.

 

The Gentlemen's Agreement covers a lot of those inconvenient things we would like to have on our ESPs and I am OK with that, but the attitude that "it is just a club match so the equipment definitions don't matter" is hard to get on with.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Jim Watson

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, Winston_Smith said:

That's how I would read the rules as well.  Which frankly doesn't make any sense.  

 

Why would it not make sense if the purpose was to allow a not-unlimited range of modifications?

 

I realize there are only indoor USPSA matches convenient to you, but USPSA is a lot more flexible about what you can do to a pistol and remain within the rules of at least one of our equipment divisions.  On top of that, if your intent is simply to have fun, I think you'll enjoy yourself more when you're free to solve the shooting problem with very, very few constraints outside of safety (USPSA) instead of having to solve it in a very prescribed way (IDPA)

 

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[Jim Watson]

I LIKE shooting indoor USPSA.  The AC and ready recovery of scarce .45 brass makes up for the narrower CoFs and the lack of side berms. (Although the indoor range here has one bay with steel plate extending several feet up the side walls, making possible wider angle shots than most.)

 

I will tough it out and shoot IDPA outdoors in the chill and on the gravel tomorrow, though.

[Winston_Smith]

14 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Why would it not make sense if the purpose was to allow a not-unlimited range of modifications?

 

I realize there are only indoor USPSA matches convenient to you, but USPSA is a lot more flexible about what you can do to a pistol and remain within the rules of at least one of our equipment divisions.  On top of that, if your intent is simply to have fun, I think you'll enjoy yourself more when you're free to solve the shooting problem with very, very few constraints outside of safety (USPSA) instead of having to solve it in a very prescribed way (IDPA)

 

 

My view is that once you open the door to modifications, it becomes fairly arbitrary as to what is and what is not allowed.  Why is a custom barrel bushing disallowed but not an obviously customized competition hammer?  I kind of thought the point of IDPA (but happy to admit I might be wrong) was to be distinct from USPSA where you can basically do most anything you want.  In other words, a gun you might actually carry.  Size and weight restrictions make sense to me; but once you allow some modifications, why not all as you long as you meet certain size and weight.  Particularly when they have a carry-optic division.  I think the Gentlemen's Agreement tacitly recognizes this and I'm glad that's the case.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Winston_Smith

[Winston_Smith]

15 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

And SSP is not as wild and wooly as "Production" either.

 

I have shot a good deal of .45 Minor in ESP; I have the double stack gun that loads to 10+1 (but I am struggling with magazine "tune" and bullet selection, see thread in Handloading) and I have some 9 round single stack magazines that fit the box*; 9+1 is not a bad handicap, maybe not at all if your MD is unimaginative.  

 

*Don't search the catalogs for 9 shot .45 magazines, most of mine are 10 rounders cut off and the floor plates silver soldered back on.

It is possible to put a CMC 7 to 8 follower and spring kit in an 8 round tube and get it to hold 9, too.

 

The Gentlemen's Agreement covers a lot of those inconvenient things we would like to have on our ESPs and I am OK with that, but the attitude that "it is just a club match so the equipment definitions don't matter" is hard to get on with.

 

 

Jim, I'm glad our club appears to be flexible on rules and equipment definitions by not strictly enforcing equipment definitions.  At the end of the day, our IDPA club matches provide an umbrella for me to just go out and shoot with pistols I like to shoot with in a format that enhances my attention to safety and shooting skills.  I'm not getting on Practiscore to figure out where I lined up vis-a-vis others (kind of a waste since 70% are shooting Carry Optic which obviously gives them a decisive advantage and I like to shoot CDP which, given ammunition restrictions, mean you will necessarily be behind everybody else from a time perspective) and I'm not planning on going beyond the club to sectionals, state, nationals, etc.  If our club did USPSA, ASI, or whatever, I'd be fine with that umbrella, too.  Today, we are doing a 3-gun shoot which is basically show up and shoot anything you want.  I like that.  For those who are really "into" the competitive aspect and want to see rules enforcement at higher-level matches, I respect that.  But since the mod rules are kind of arbitrary to begin with, why preclude people who would otherwise want to participate at the club level just because they have a custom barrel bushing?

[Winston_Smith]

Just now, Winston_Smith said:

Jim, I'm glad our club appears to be flexible on rules and equipment definitions by not strictly enforcing equipment definitions.  At the end of the day, our IDPA club matches provide an umbrella for me to just go out and shoot with pistols I like to shoot with in a format that enhances my attention to safety and shooting skills.  I'm not getting on Practiscore to figure out where I lined up vis-a-vis others (kind of a waste since 70% are shooting Carry Optic which obviously gives them a decisive advantage and I like to shoot CDP which, given ammunition restrictions, mean you will necessarily be behind everybody else from a time perspective) and I'm not planning on going beyond the club to sectionals, state, nationals, etc.  If our club did USPSA, ASI, or whatever, I'd be fine with that umbrella, too.  Today, we are doing a 3-gun shoot which is basically show up and shoot anything you want.  I like that.  For those who are really "into" the competitive aspect and want to see rules enforcement at higher-level matches, I respect that.  But since the mod rules are kind of arbitrary to begin with, why preclude people who would otherwise want to participate at the club level just because they have a custom barrel bushing?

I should note, by the way, that all of my pistols as concurrently configured meet IDPA rules.

[SGT_Schultz]

6 minutes ago, Winston_Smith said:

 Size and weight restrictions make sense to me; but once you allow some modifications, why not all as you long as you meet certain size and weight.

Why not allow all modifications?  Because not all modifications are equal in their effect or expense.

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Winston_Smith said:

 Particularly when they have a carry-optic division.

Why does carry optics bug you so much?  You do realize that certain optics and the way they're mounted are absolutely appropriate for concealed carry, right?  And that many handguns today come ready to accept such optics from the factory.  And that many (myself included) do effectively conceal carry compact and mid sized handguns with silde mounted optics?

 

[SGT_Schultz]

Just now, Winston_Smith said:

 But since the mod rules are kind of arbitrary to begin with, why preclude people who would otherwise want to participate at the club level just because they have a custom barrel bushing?

 

I told you before, IDPA has a Specialty division for just such occasion.

[Winston_Smith]

5 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

I told you before, IDPA has a Specialty division for just such occasion.

As a technical matter, our club doesn't run a "Specialty" division; as a practical matter, it more or less does.

[Winston_Smith]

7 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

Why not allow all modifications?  Because not all modifications are equal in their effect or expense.

 

 

 

Why does carry optics bug you so much?  You do realize that certain optics and the way they're mounted are absolutely appropriate for concealed carry, right?  And that many handguns today come ready to accept such optics from the factory.  And that many (myself included) do effectively conceal carry compact and mid sized handguns with silde mounted optics?

 

Yes, I'm aware of all of those things.  I'm waiting to pick up my Walther Q 5 Match SF.  Would I actually conceal carry that with with an RMR?  No.  Do you actually compete with your compact CO pistol?  Kudos to you if you do.  It doesn't "bug me" that IDPA has a Carry Optic division.  But no one I've seen competing with CO at my club would/could actually conceal carry their pistol with optic that they use to actually shoot.

[Jim Watson]

I have shot several places that do not apply full IDPA rules, but they don't CALL it IDPA.  That is ok... until you go to a regulation match and get hung up on an IDPA rule and "We don't do it that way in Podunk." will not get you out of a PE.  But then most of those folks will not go to any trouble or travel any distance to shoot and will not be exposed to rules.

 

I got the local wildcat MD to quit calling his game IDPA which gratifies me and does not matter to the casual local-only shooters.

 

Unfortunately, the USPSAish MD thinks he is running the real thing but is not.  I have told him what he lacks and will find out if he cares on Sunday.  

 

There are outliers.

I know one guy who shoots and carries a CO for all purposes.  No BUIS, either; he says that if his battery goes flat, he can frame an opponent in the window well enough to get hits.

Another guy campaigns a P365 - I think, there are just so many of these things - and reloads out of his pocket.  He isn't fast but he is getting valuable practice with his defensive weapon.

[SGT_Schultz]

2 hours ago, Winston_Smith said:

Yes, I'm aware of all of those things.  I'm waiting to pick up my Walther Q 5 Match SF.  Would I actually conceal carry that with with an RMR?  No.  Do you actually compete with your compact CO pistol?  Kudos to you if you do.  It doesn't "bug me" that IDPA has a Carry Optic division.  But no one I've seen competing with CO at my club would/could actually conceal carry their pistol with optic that they use to actually shoot.

 

Normally no, I don't use my carry gun for carry optics, either in IDPA or USPSA.  It doesn't matter to me for several reasons.

 

Number one, these are sports.  Both of them.  Neither is training nor practice for self defense.

 

Number two, the practical marksmanship skills that one does gain transfer to any pistol one later picks up.  At least in my own experience.

 

Number three, my carry pistol is the mid sized version (CZ P-07) of my CO competition pistol (CZ P-09).  And the competition pistol, while still modified, is a lot closer to stock than most.

[Jim Watson]

Winston, if you are still around, see the new 2022 edition. 

ESP now officially follows the Gentlemen's Agreement- AC Letter.

Very little difference from L10, make weight, fit box.  

[Winston_Smith]

On 3/18/2022 at 11:47 PM, Jim Watson said:

Winston, if you are still around, see the new 2022 edition. 

ESP now officially follows the Gentlemen's Agreement- AC Letter.

Very little difference from L10, make weight, fit box.  

Thanks Jim.  I actually went ahead and had my 97BD upgraded by Cajun Gun Works with the Pro Package without the enhanced bushing added in the "E" version.  I did that more for expense reasons than IDPA rule compliance.  I must say that for any CZ owners out there contemplating using CGW to upgrade your pistol, go for it.  This is the best pistol I have ever shot, period, full stop.  I'm having my other CZ upgraded as well.  Not cheap but well worth it.

[Jim Watson]

They have a great reputation in the marque.  

I doubt you will feel a lack of the barrel bushing in IDPA; a smidgen off machine rest groups is not significant.

You will find that .45 vs 9mm will gain you a point every now and then when the bigger bullet just hits the line.

When I was running .45 ESP, I was typically seeing 2 points per match.  Joe D. once reported 6 nipper zeros.  

[Winston_Smith]

2 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

They have a great reputation in the marque.  

I doubt you will feel a lack of the barrel bushing in IDPA; a smidgen off machine rest groups is not significant.

You will find that .45 vs 9mm will gain you a point every now and then when the bigger bullet just hits the line.

When I was running .45 ESP, I was typically seeing 2 points per match.  Joe D. once reported 6 nipper zeros.  

Agreed.  The pistol is pretty damn accurate out of the box.  I actually hadn't thought of the advantage of using .45 v 9mm which you point out.  I shot my first IDPA match with a Walther PPQ .45 which has a 4 1/4 barrel.  The recoil on that thing just about wiped me out by the end of the day.  

[Jim Watson]

Note I said .45 ESP which is Minor power factor.  I haven't shot CDP or anything in USPSA requiring Major loads in years; one magazine will kick me into a flinch.  

[usmc1974]

Gentlemen's Agreement? Please explain this to me!

[matteekay]

23 minutes ago, usmc1974 said:

Gentlemen's Agreement? Please explain this to me!

 

It doesn't matter anymore because the new rules supersede it. But, for history's sake...

 

The Area Coordinators got together and decided that ESP rules were going to be "if it fits in the box, makes weight, and doesn't have any of the 'outlawed for all divisions' features (like comps), it's good to go for ESP". This did away with things like the bull barrel restrictions. It was considered a gentlemen's agreement because it was never officially adopted by IDPA (until the 2022 rules) and was instead circulated through Facebook and social media.