Winston_Smith Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 If I convert a CZ 97 B to the Cajun Gun Works "E" version, can I use this pistol in IDPA Enhance Service Pistol Competition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 (edited) The present AC Gentlemen's Agreement would pass it so long as it made weight, fit The Box, and did not have something obviously disallowed like a mushroom head magazine catch or superfluous holes in the barrel. Catalog specifications say it will and I don't think Cajun is doing anything considered unacceptable at present. The 1911 bushing would not likely pass a strict technical inspection but they are not now checking for stuff like that. Edited October 22, 2021 by Jim Watson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddc Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 Has the "AC Gentlemen's Agreement" been published anywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 Since it does not adhere strictly to printed rules, probably not. There is a Covid Pause in rule book editions, maybe they will formally apply it next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 On 10/22/2021 at 6:25 AM, Winston_Smith said: If I convert a CZ 97 B to the Cajun Gun Works "E" version, can I use this pistol in IDPA Enhance Service Pistol Competition? You can take your chances with the IDPA rules opinion lottery or you can just shoot it in USPSA Production where it's both perfectly within the rules and plenty competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matteekay Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 On 10/22/2021 at 3:03 PM, ddc said: Has the "AC Gentlemen's Agreement" been published anywhere? It only exists in emails people have received from the various AC's right now. You're probably fine to employ it up-to and including a regional level but I would adhere to the official rules for things like Nationals until changes are formalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston_Smith Posted October 30, 2021 Author Share Posted October 30, 2021 Thanks all. Candidly, I just shoot at my local club which has an IDPA chapter (we don't have USPSA). I think we are a little looser on the rules. I don't really intend to shoot beyond my local club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston_Smith Posted October 30, 2021 Author Share Posted October 30, 2021 (edited) On 10/23/2021 at 2:58 PM, SGT_Schultz said: You can take your chances with the IDPA rules opinion lottery or you can just shoot it in USPSA Production where it's both perfectly within the rules and plenty competitive. SGT Schultz, I think your response in another thread answers the question. The "E" conversion puts a custom barrel bushing on the gun; since that's not on the "inclusive list" under the ESP rules, I'm assuming that's illegal. Kind of silly when you think about it. Edited October 30, 2021 by Winston_Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 It WAS illegal. It is not now under the Gentlemen's Agreement. It may once again be illegal depending on how the rules are revised the next time around. If you already have the gun, shoot and enjoy. If you don't, you should at least consider foregoing the bushing conversion so you will comply with the 2017 written rules. Here is a description of the origins of the Gentlemen's Agreement: (There is a clanger in there I will get to later.) From RACL Rick Lund: This is a reminder for many of you, and news to the remainder of everyone who sends in questions to HQ and their AC's about whether their gun is legal for IDPA. Figuring this out for you is not really the job of headquarters since the specifications of the divisions are detailed in the rulebook. There is one exception to this: Enhanced Service Pistol (ESP). What happened is in early 2017, after our new rulebook went into effect, manufacturers began turning out new guns and components that over time, have become stock items on service guns and questions started pouring in. Examples of these are lightened slides, heavier barrels, and weighted grips. Recognizing that technology and new manufacturing improvements are showing us new products and firearms every year that enhance off-the-shelf inventories for specific uses such as concealed carry. And because we accept these new guns into our sport where appropriate as Stock Service Pistols, it would only be a matter of time that the help desk would be receiving calls about mix and match guns for our other divisions. We also said to ourselves that we were not going to issue a new rulebook or addendums every time something new hit the market and the IDPA equipment check at matches. So we came up with a short-term solution until such time that the BOD and HQ decide to conduct a review of the rules for our sport. We announced that the test criteria for Enhanced Service Pistol would be: EDC-Fit the Box-Make Weight. The gun must still comply with 8.1.7.D addressing magazine releases. This policy supersedes the inspection criteria detailed in the rulebook for ESP. This way it is easier for everyone that wants to use any firearm that might otherwise be excluded using our rules. Stock Service Pistol means Stock. If there are any visible differences from an SKU on the manufacturers' website, the gun will not be allowed to compete in this division. The same principle applies to Custom Defensive Pistol. If you find a .45 that has a heavy barrel without a bushing or lightened slides that you want to compete with, enter the gun into ESP. Back-Up Gun (BUG), Compact Carry Pistol and Carry Optics have the same allowances as ESP with different size and weight restrictions. These are all published on our website, in our current rules and appendices. If you are really stuck, your AC or IPOC have the ability to get you a correct answer. See you on the range. Rick Lund Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 9 minutes ago, Jim Watson said: If you already have the gun, shoot and enjoy. I wouldn't waste my money going to anything higher than a club match relying on IDPA's completely arbitrary and confusing rule-making and enforcement. Gentlemen's Agreement? Who can take seriously a sport that relies on something like that? 9 minutes ago, Jim Watson said: If you don't, you should at least consider foregoing the bushing conversion so you will comply with the 2017 written rules This is what I would do in this case. And go shoot USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 3 hours ago, Winston_Smith said: SGT Schultz, I think your response in another thread answers the question. The "E" conversion puts a custom barrel bushing on the gun; since that's not on the "inclusive list" under the ESP rules, I'm assuming that's illegal. Kind of silly when you think about it. Exactly. If you haven't bought it and are set on IDPA, just tell CGW that you want the package minus the bushing. I doubt the lack of it will make a meaningful difference in sports where the acceptable target area is an 8" circle or a nearly 6X11 rectangle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 Yeah, we know, Schultzie, The Answer will always be Shoot USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston_Smith Posted November 1, 2021 Author Share Posted November 1, 2021 I'm not really interested in shooting USPSA. All the USPSA matches where I live are in in-door ranges. I like being outdoors and being able to shoot into lateral side-berms. I haven't yet taken ownership of my 97 BD. I will figure this out in the next couple of months. Thanks for all of the responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 Hey, I LIKE indoor USPSA. Air conditioning and indoor plumbing. I shoot them both and would not push my luck on a gun spec. If they ever came out with an official version of the Gentlemen's Agreement you could have the bushing added. If you thought it would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston_Smith Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 Getting a gun I enjoy shooting is more important than worrying about whether it will fit into someone's rulebook. I was more curious than anything to know if the E conversion would disqualify it from IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 As I hope to have explained, it is acceptable now but who knows what lies in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matteekay Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 It'd probably be helpful to explain what an "E" version is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 3 hours ago, Winston_Smith said: Getting a gun I enjoy shooting is more important than worrying about whether it will fit into someone's rulebook. I was more curious than anything to know if the E conversion would disqualify it from IDPA. Then get the whole E package and shoot in the Specialty Division of IDPA See section 8.2.10 of their rulebook Come to think of it, at least locally, IDPA match directors and range officers don't have a clue about what makes a pistol fit or not fit in any of the IDPA divisions. I suspect that's the norm so just go pay your money and shoot. Money talks and if you don't care about competition and only care about fun, then it won't matter what kind of pistol you use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston_Smith Posted November 4, 2021 Author Share Posted November 4, 2021 I think you have kind of nailed it. I get the sense they are fairly loose on the rules at my club. I'm not planning on trying to go to events outside of my club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston_Smith Posted November 4, 2021 Author Share Posted November 4, 2021 On 11/3/2021 at 3:00 PM, matteekay said: It'd probably be helpful to explain what an "E" version is. Here you go: https://cajungunworks.com/product/e-conversion-for-cz-97b-bd-625-00/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston_Smith Posted November 4, 2021 Author Share Posted November 4, 2021 On 11/3/2021 at 2:35 PM, Jim Watson said: As I hope to have explained, it is acceptable now but who knows what lies in the future. You did and thank you. I saw Lund's post on Linked-In. I'm kind of baffled by the whole thing but then, other than weight and dimension, I really don't understand the rationale behind the rules, other than those for SSP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matteekay Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 On 10/23/2021 at 12:58 PM, SGT_Schultz said: You can take your chances with the IDPA rules opinion lottery or you can just shoot it in USPSA Production where it's both perfectly within the rules and plenty competitive. .45 ACP is plenty competitive in Production? That's... weird advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matteekay Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Winston_Smith said: Here you go: https://cajungunworks.com/product/e-conversion-for-cz-97b-bd-625-00/ I don't see anything there that would bar it from ESP. Actually, you could probably play with the other .45's in CDP as long as you make weight. I think you'd pass a tech inspection, as well. The letter of the law (at present) is that you can't have a bushingless barrel over 4.25". I don't see anything that bars you from converting a bull gun to one with a bushing. Edit: Re-reading the CDP rules, you can replace the barrel with one "of factory configuration." So I guess that's debatable. But if you're only shooting locals it's not going to matter. Edited November 5, 2021 by matteekay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 26 minutes ago, matteekay said: .45 ACP is plenty competitive in Production? That's... weird advice. When handloaded properly it is, assuming you can grip a pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 24 minutes ago, matteekay said: I don't see anything there that would bar it from ESP. The bushing is not on the inclusive list of approved modifications. That's why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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