Which Rule For This Dq

[cking]

Standing in a shooting box, behind a barricade. You have to shoot the targets on right from left side, targets on right from left side. Many shooters transferred the gun to other hand.

During the handoff from one hand to the other the gun fires. Shooters was attempting to engage a target.

Which rule?

[AzShooter]

Rule 10.4.5 A shot which occurs while transferring a handgun between hands

[mactiger]

10.4.5, exactly.

Troy

[Bigbadaboom]

Rule 10.4.5 A shot which occurs while transferring a handgun between hands

What he said + 10.4.6 & 10.5.10 referencing 8.5.1.2

Edited November 7, 2005 by Bigbadaboom

[cking]

Thanks guys, my old rulebook didn't have 10.4.5.

Only one I could think of was unsafe gun handling.

10.5.10 during movement. Since your in one box, I think movement only applies when your feet are moving.

Movement is define in 8.5.1 this is not movement.

Edited November 7, 2005 by cking

[Bigbadaboom]

Thanks guys, my old rulebook didn't have 10.4.5.

Only one I could think of was unsafe gun handling.

10.5.10 during movement. Since your in one box, I think movement only applies when your feet are moving.

Movement is define in 8.5.1 this is not movement.

8.5 Movement;

8.5.1.2 : "Changing shooting stance (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.)." I would think that the etc. in that rule includes completely moving around a barricade to shoot at targets diagonally. You can't tell me you can do this without changing your shooting stance. It's really moot because 10.4.5 gives you your answer. I only included 10.5.10 referencing 8.5.1 incase the Shooter tried the "I was finished transfering the gun when it went off so that rule doesn't apply" B.S. I try to always cover all bases.

[MVZ]

If the shooter was engaging a target there is no DQ

MVZ

[SRT Driver]

You can't engage targets during the transfer.

[Nik Habicht]

You can't engage targets during the transfer.

Sure you can ---- but you ought to get a procedural for using both hands, if the stage description only specified strong or weak hand, or if you engaged a target from the wrong position.......

[SRT Driver]

Nik,

How does one engage targets while transferring between hands?

If a target is engaged, meaning a shot is fired at the target, during the transfer that is an AD.

[Nik Habicht]

Nik,

How does one engage targets while transferring between hands?

If a target is engaged, meaning a shot is fired at the target, during the transfer that is an AD.

O.K. ---- I realize I'm stirring the pot a bit here......

At some point during the transfer, the gun's gotta be in both hands. Assuming that the shooter doesn't have the "Deer in the headlights, Oh my God, what was that" look, they can make the argument that they fired a freestyle shot. I'll ask you a question ---- How do you (as the R.O.) know that the shooter broke the shot during the transfer? The look referenced above, a bullet striking the ground, and a possible host of other things may indicate that that's what happened ---- but the R.O. needs to be certain......

I think it's easy to recite the rule, and that most of us will know it when we see it. Teaching it however, is a little more difficult than just citing the rule.......

[SRT Driver]

Nik,

OK! Ladel in hand!!!

I remember what Jay said in our Level 2 class, "If it looks like a duck..."

Think about how you make a weak hand transfer. Do you have control and a solid grip during the transfer? If the gun fires during the transfer, you'll know it both, as a shooter and RO, if you've spent anytime running shooters at all.

Knowing the rules and putting those rules into practice is an RO's job. You know and I certainly know what looks like a duck is what it is.

[Nik Habicht]

I remember what Jay said in our Level 2 class, "If it looks like a duck..."

That's what I really wanted to get to in the discussion ---- it's one of those things you'll know when you see it......

[Bigbadaboom]

Nik,

How does one engage targets while transferring between hands?

If a target is engaged, meaning a shot is fired at the target, during the transfer that is an AD.

O.K. ---- I realize I'm stirring the pot a bit here......

At some point during the transfer, the gun's gotta be in both hands. Assuming that the shooter doesn't have the "Deer in the headlights, Oh my God, what was that" look, they can make the argument that they fired a freestyle shot. I'll ask you a question ---- How do you (as the R.O.) know that the shooter broke the shot during the transfer? The look referenced above, a bullet striking the ground, and a possible host of other things may indicate that that's what happened ---- but the R.O. needs to be certain......

I think it's easy to recite the rule, and that most of us will know it when we see it. Teaching it however, is a little more difficult than just citing the rule.......

This is exactly why I brought up rule 10.5.10

[wide45]

You may be sure of what you saw, but you need a rule.

Standards, shoot, reload, shoot WHO. Competitor shoots, reloads, has the gun in weak hand with strong still touching while extending gun to firing position, it goes bang. Bullet strikes at base of target, about 10 yrds. RO stops competitor before completing string.

What rule applys?

The competitor won his arb.

[SRT Driver]

Should have given a Procedural, no DQ.

10.2.8.1

[wide45]

The RO stopped the competitor prior to his completing the string. If no DQ, what rule applies?

Similar situation to 5.7.6 but no cigar.

8.6.3 is the best I found. Does NOT require a reshoot, the RO has the option of scoring as shot. I don't like it.

[SRT Driver]

I don't think there is a specific rule for that situation. Maybe 8.6.3 for "other" external influence and the shooter is offered a reshoot, not required.

The RO stopped the shooter before he had completed the COF. If the CRO / RM, doesn't agree and overrides the DQ, the right thing to do is issue a reshoot. If it goes to arb, then they rule.

The RO should have given a procedural instead of a DQ but hindsight is always...

Nik,

Loaded sight pictures..I suppose you could put something in the walkthrough but 8.7 doesn't apply in the US, as you know.

[chuckbradley]

Guess it depends on how you define "during the transfer" Same situation as during a reload. If the transfer was done, (gun in the hand it was intended to end up in) and then the shot goes off as he is directing the gun and prepping the trigger then no penalty or DQ as long as the rounds stays in the range. Unless of course it is a standards as mentioned above. Then maybe a penalty for both hands touching the gun when it broke.

Same thing as on a reload. You slam the mag in as you are directing the gun to the next target and the gun goes off. AS long as the round is in the range no DQ. Easy way to tell if the reload is done is check to see if the mag is locked in and another round fed. IF so then the reload was done before the shot broke, it was just a premature shot which we have all done at one point or another.

Maybe the new rule book clears this all up and I hate to admit I am not up on all the new changes.

[richardschennberg]

How was the gun held when it fired?

If the beavertail was completely seated in one hand or the other, two or three fingers around the front of the gun, and the trigger was pulled by the index finger of the same hand, then I would have given a procedural (reshoot if I mistakenly stopped the shooter) for touching the gun with both hands contrary to the course description.

However, if the gun was not seated in either hand and it clearly was fired accidentally during the transfer, DQ for unsafe gun handling and Rule 10.4.5.

The key question: was it unsafe?

Once the gun is firmly held in the weak hand and aimed at the target IMO it is not unsafe.