Crossover And Roll

[dirtypool40]

I've been video-ing the local matches and the FL Open, mostly to watch movement.

I ain't there yet (!) but things look like they are improving. Coming into to positions especially looks much better. I am shooting earlier than I ever have and getting decent hits. Feels better too, like it makes sense.

Leaving is stil in the works. Crossover is a "when possible" but often positions don't let you without making it really awkard. I often do the same side step, or lead foot, but I am doing pretty good on NOT doing the dum' ole' step back I was before.

[Clay1]

Recent discussion with an A class Limited shooter and a Master class Open shooter shed some interesting light on this subject for me. They both moved with the leading foot and not the cross over. I asked why. One of them looked at me and said "it's a proven fact from baseball and stealing bases" Honestly, I shoot guns and am not a big baseball fan (almost unAmerican - I know - please forgive me) but he said the guy that leads in stolen bases always moves his leading foot. So if going to the right he moves his right foot first.

I do think that different people will have different techniques that work for them. Lanny Bassham in his book said something like: "If you are doing things different from the normal winners and winning you are called innovative; if you are doing something different than the normal winners and loosing well they call you something else." Probably a terrible paraphrase but I think I conveyed the point still.

I would love to hear what you guys came up with when you put a timer to it. I will be running some of these drills with my slow technique and see what actually works better for me, but sometimes even though a technique might be superior you still might get a shorter time with a familiar technique because you don't have to think about it. It takes some time and repetitions to make a new technique your own. The learning curve might give you a false indicator of which way is faster until you actually work on different ways of doing it for a while so that is why I am interested in what you discovered. Hopefully so that I don't have to waste time working on a system that won't give me the biggest bang for the buck.

Rick

[dirtypool40]

you're right of course, there's more than one way to skin it, and it is "quicker" to move that foot; ie you can kick it out there like a front leg front kick, where as the corssover requires stepping through, like a rear leg front kick and "feels" slower. Covers more ground in a longer time, vs shorter distance and quicker time, that's the riddle. "fast" vs. "Quick".

If they took the same time there would be no contest; crossover covers 2-3x more distance. But when you factor in the quickness of the weight shift and simplicity of stepping with that lead foot, it seems to be pretty close and I will admit to using both, as the situation dictates. A lot of positions really make you step front leg just to get out of the spot you're jammed into.

If I could catpure it on camera the thing we want to know is how soon and how far away does the second foot touch down with each technique. Hard to come up with.

I think Jake posted he is still quicker with the step back, but I will have to look into it. He's a quick little monkey and could probably outrun me moonwalking. What this thread is about is my experimentation and trying to find a competitive way for my big, slow ass to move.

Coming into positions seems more cut and dried, for me at least. I HAVE to come in cross footed or I am all over the place.

[AWLAZS]

Eric are you still working with this?

[Sean Gaines]

It took me over 2 years for this skill to hit home, and i can say that it works, I did the leading foot kick out, and it is much slower (felt faster). I was getting .3 faster doing the crossover move. It is way faster. WHen I figured it out it was like a punch in the face. Because I had heard about it but never practiced against the timer, kinda yeah yeah it for 2 years. But its truly much faster. But also what Eric says it depends on the distance. And like Jake said its good to know both. Lets say you have a port that your set up at and another port maybe 2-3 feet away, a crossover step is not the answer, lift the right foot toward the next postion and bring the left foot softly into proper shooting postion, is faster. Oh and the person who said that the leader in stolen bases doesn't do a crossover step, is incorrect that would Be Ricky Henderson and he always did a crossover step, he would just pivot his leading foot in the direction of where he was running. This is good stuff, These movements that Dp,Erik, etc represents some valuable information that like they say you would have to pay for. Or in my case stumble across it as I matured as a shooter. Practice it, it works.

later

sean

[AWLAZS]

I just found this video of Matt. He shows the crossover in this link.

http://www.msu.edu/~cheelyma/videos/WIStage3.wmv

[ChrisStock]

Eric are you still working with this?

I'll chime in since Eric hasn't... these were all covered nicely during our training course with him. I had hiked 15 miles 2 days prior to the course and was in no pain. We performed enough repetitions that I felt like someone had used a meat tenderizer mallet on my thighs byt he end of day 2. Eric has box to box/position to position movement down smooth as glass, but I'm still working on it. At a minimum I was given the skillset to be able to teach myself how to do it properly. It LOOKS so damned easy and natural, but for me it's anything but that.

[dirtypool40]

Eric are you still working with this?

Sorry I missed the resurrection of this thread. Yes, I still work on this all the time. We spend probably 50% of the time in class working this.

I am still convinced on the entry, but the lauch, I do more of a same side step than a corssover. I tried but I couldn't make the corssover reflexive as long as I stopped all the way. It does work well for shooting on the move and "soft stops" but if I am standing still and need to launch I tend to same side step.

For me at least, the timer says there isn't much difference, on the launch end, but the big difference is on teh entry, being able to fire an aimed shot earlier.

Reading back through this thread I noticed some things, now that I feel I have a better grasp of movement.

- I never let students (or myself in practice) hit a position from exactly the same spot more than a few times. I don't want to count steps I want to learn to move visually, and know yb visual distance when it's time to slow down, mount the gun and cross step in.

- I've gotten better at hitting a specific point with the entry foot, but I use a shotgun hull or something similar as a visual target for students, so they have some to snap their eyes to as they leave the first position. I often see students "scoring" targets as they leave positions. You run slow doing this, it's a bad habit, break it.

- Snapping your eyes back up to target; I've found I can generally do it a couple steps out, and still hit my point with the entry foot, which is a huge time saver that only comes from lots of practice. If you want to break that shot as the rear leg breaks ground, you have to have your eyes on target and the gun up earlier.

- When you snap your eyes to the target, the front sight should be coming up into view, so you press it to the aiming point and rock the rear up around it. You can make a perfect entry into a position and blow all your time savings waiting for the sights to come up. When you start to slow down for the entry MOUNT THE GUN!!!

- two most common critiques I give during entry practice are "Gun needs to come up earlier" and "you're still coming in too fast, SNEAK into position".

Hope that helps!!!

Edited February 28, 2008 by dirtypool40

[AWLAZS]

Eric are you still working with this?

I'll chime in since Eric hasn't... these were all covered nicely during our training course with him. I had hiked 15 miles 2 days prior to the course and was in no pain. We performed enough repetitions that I felt like someone had used a meat tenderizer mallet on my thighs byt he end of day 2. Eric has box to box/position to position movement down smooth as glass, but I'm still working on it. At a minimum I was given the skillset to be able to teach myself how to do it properly. It LOOKS so damned easy and natural, but for me it's anything but that.

Chris you are right he does make it look easy. I took a class from him and was sore for a few days. He brought a ringer in during the afternoon to be on the video so I could be reminded of the correct way to do things. You can hear him laughing on the tape.

[TWHaz]

TJ's youtube of what you seek.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5M4EHsVHZY...feature=related

Edited February 9, 2009 by TWHaz