Calling Shots On Steel

[Flyin40]

I came to realize this weekend I have this bad habit of leaving one piece of steel standing during every match. I left one at a match on Sunday. I had ask several people whether I had an edge hit. A couple replied that I didn't even shoot at it.

I did shoot at it because I can still recall the sight picture I had in my head. The dot was right on, dead center on the small popper at about 12 yds. I called this shot a hit and went on to finish the stage without even looking at it. I have been calling my misses pretty well and I didn't see this one. After discussing this with another shooter, hes helped me alot this yr, he suggested I was swinging through the target, right past and then pulling the trigger. I seem to do this on the last piece of steel prior to finishing the paper. I'll give a few examples of what I do

In this order from Left to right theres was a Drop turner, activator, small popper, small popper. I shot the activator, small popper, small popper then 2 shots on the drop turner. I think this one is nothing more than rushing on the last one and not getting a good sight picture. BTW, I called the shot a hit and finished the course and left one piece of steel.

In this order, left to right 3 small plates on post then on the other side of the wall 3 more plates. On the last plate in the first array I left the last plate up. I called that shot also.

Had 3 targets, move engage 4 targets through the port, move then paper, paper, steel, paper, steel, steel, paper, paper around the last wall. On this one the last steel was right before a paper and close, I mean 3 ft away paper you had to lean around a wall to get. I may having been rushing to get to the paper.

Any suggestions

Flyin40

[spook]

Sounds like you are not staying with the dot until you have actually finished the shot. When you want to leave for the next position right after seeing the dot lift, it is so easy to move just a millisecond to soon and cause a bad aim right at moment the shot actually goes off. This happens when you subconsciously accept the mistake of confusing 'having a good sight picture' with 'calling the shot' (following through).

I think the root of all this is wanting to leave fast. This results in wanting the shot to go off sooner and already focussing on leaving. One will turn this 'wanting' into making the shot go off.

But then, it might just be that you need to adjust the dot

[short_round]

... calling the shot is calling the shot and is independent of what you are shooting at. Some targets just have more tolerance to hit a scoring surface than others so it seems like there is less "shot calling" on them. Don't be fooled by this. I expect, someone who is committed to hitting the highest scoring zone on paper sees no difference with shooting steel at distance. Since I am not one of these people maybe one of them will write in and confirm or deny.

BTW, I called the shot a hit and finished the course and left one piece of steel.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... the shot was called wrong then and recalibration is in order.

[Flyin40]

Sounds like you are not staying with the dot until you have actually finished the shot. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was thinking about this too but in a different way. I was thinking more of rushing which is basically what your saying. But they way you put it the light bulb went off in my head. This makes perfect sense. I seen the dot dead center of the popper but the more I think about it my mind was already focusing on the next shot before I finished the shot. No follow through at all. Kinda like the receiver down the field turning his head and looking at the end zone before he even catches the ball. Takes the eyes off the ball at the last second and misses the catch.

As for adjusting the dot, I have been thinking about this. I have been shooting 2 months with the zero at 25yds. I'm still not 100% comfortable with it. I know this will result in some bad shots if in the back of your mind your not confident. For my entire life I have shot with a zero at a set distance and the farther the shot the more you have to raise the gun/aim higher. With a 25 yd zero I have hold low out to 17 yds.

At 20 and 25 I can hold right on. I have been trying to change my thought process on this but its taking a long time.

Is it worth it??? I'll have to some reading of 15 yd zero, I remember seeing this somewhere on the forum. I think majority of targets are inside of 15 yds.

Flyin40

[spook]

I like the analogy of the receiver focussing on scoring before he catches the ball. That is exactly what I meant

Of course, you need to hav 100% confidence in your gear. I would personally zero in at the distance most targets are at (a nice medium distance of 15-18 yards). I'd say that it's better to just put the dot where you want the hole 80% of the times and holding high/low 20% of the times than the other way around. There are quite a lot of threads on this subject here.

[Stuck in C]

Although I shoot iron sights I seem to do one of two things trying to transition-both of which are wrong. 1) Fire the last shot (the 2nd shot on paper, the first on steel); bring the sights back into alignment on this target; transition to the next target. This results in good hits but is slow! 2) Transition to the next shot before I really complete the one I'm on, pulling the sights off just before the shot breaks resulting in a miss although I wrongly call a hit. Spook described this perfectly. This is the next thing I really need to work on in practice. I doubt that its your dot zero, unless the windage is off. If you're shooting a major power open gun you could be off vertically several inches or more and still knock the steel down.

[Jake Di Vita]

You aren't calling your shot.

Swinging through is a definite possibility...but that shouldn't matter at all if you are truly calling your shots.

[benos]

You aren't calling your shot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right - you can't be or you would not have doubts about what you are doing/seeing, and this thread wouldn't be here.

Just because you remember seeing one thing doesn't mean you saw what you needed to.

be

[XRe]

I've caught myself in the past couple of matches lining the sights up on a steel target, then looking to the next target while I'm breaking the shot. This results in either a miss, or me standing there going "Did I hit it, or what?". At best, it's a hesitation while I confirm the hit. If a miss, though, I tend to then go into unfocused hose mode, and fire one or more shots w/o having a sight picture !?!?! Sheesh... That's bad, m'kay???

At least I know what I'm doing.... now to correct it....

[Flyin40]

I've caught myself in the past couple of matches lining the sights up on a steel target, then looking to the next target while I'm breaking the shot. This results in either a miss, or me standing there going "Did I hit it, or what?". At best, it's a hesitation while I confirm the hit. If a miss, though, I tend to then go into unfocused hose mode, and fire one or more shots w/o having a sight picture !?!?! Sheesh... That's bad, m'kay???

At least I know what I'm doing.... now to correct it....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is what I think I"m doing. I'm calling the shot but as I'm breaking the shot I am already going to the next target without finishing or following through with the shot.

I only do this on certain arrays of targets. I was looking more for the reason why I do it on the last steel. I think I have found the answer.

Thks for the help

Flyin40

[Flyin40]

You aren't calling your shot.

Swinging through is a definite possibility...but that shouldn't matter at all if you are truly calling your shots.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your right on Jake, If I was really calling my shot, like Brian said, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'm just really learning how to do this. I would say theres probably different levels of calling a shot from knowing that you missed to knowing that that you hit the target in the D zone at the top right corner. I think I'm in a place where I know I had a bad shot and sometimes able to call exactly where it went but I can't do it consistently. I'm learning though. Rather too quickly sometimes. I want to be able to call the shot and know exaclty where it went on the target not just a general area. I can imagine this takes some time and work. I just need to do some more research so I can get that clear picture of the end result and understand the end result so I go about working on it the right way. Having a 2yr old and a newborn really slowed my practing up which I don't mind. Time is much harder to find.

Thks for the input

Flyin40

[Flexmoney]

Lets get rid of the notion that you can sorta call the shot. Calling the shot is fairly black and white. Either you are reading the gun at the exact moment the bullet leaves the barrel...or, you aren't.

Calling is a specific snapshot in time. If your time index that you are reading the gun happens a few moments before the bullet leaves the barrel...then, you don't really know where the bullet is going. You aren't calling the shot.

Anybody out there that thinks they are calling the shot...that thinks they saw the sights/gun...and, the bullet misses where they called...then, there is something broken. Could be the gun, likely is the shooter. For newer shooters, it is usually some type of flinch. For, shooters that do well on most targets (but, miss the first shot coming into an array, or the last shot leaving an array, for example)...often, the issue is rushing...a focus on speed, not seeing with the goal of an Alpha hit.

(That's my story...and I'm sticking to it. )

[AustinMike]

I had something like this happen at my last match, with an IPSC cardboard target. It was the last cardboard target to shoot from between barricades before having to move to a portal with a reload. I hit two A's on another target, 3 pieces of steel, then an A and a miss on the last target. Bugged the hell out of me - couldn't see how I could have bloody well missed the damn thing all together! I think what probably happened was that my mind jumped to the next task and lost focus as the shot went off. I may have started to move to the next target or even started going for the mag release subconsiously without a complete follow through. Kind of taking the second shot for granted since I saw the first one in or something like that.

[XRe]

For, shooters that do well on most targets (but, miss the first shot coming into an array, or the last shot leaving an array, for example)...often, the issue is rushing...a focus on speed, not seeing with the goal of an Alpha hit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's what's going on, in my case. Call it rushing, lack of patience, lack of follow through, whatever - it all boils down to the same basic thing

[Stuck in C]

We seem to shoot a lot of 24-32 round field courses (which I find the most fun) around here, and what happens to me is the on the first targets I'll be calling my shots and knowing where my shots went; by the end of the course I have no idea whether I'm hitting or not and don't know until the targets are scored. I'll make up shots on targets that have 2 good hits and have misses on targets that I should have made up but didn't. I start to rush somewhere during the stage and forget the patience part of visual patience. Most of my bad habits I could get rid of through directed practice; this seems more of a match thing and I'm not sure how to eliminate it.

[shred]

I had something like this happen at my last match, with an IPSC cardboard target.  It was the last cardboard target to shoot from between barricades before having to move to a portal with a reload.  I hit two A's on another target, 3 pieces of steel, then an A and a miss on the last target.  Bugged the hell out of me - couldn't see how I could have bloody well missed the damn thing all together!  I think what probably happened was that my mind jumped to the next task and lost focus as the shot went off.  I may have started to move to the next target or even started going for the mag release subconsiously without a complete follow through.  Kind of taking the second shot for granted since I saw the first one in or something like that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is one of the classic misses on close targets-- you're in such a hurry to get to the next that your attention is gone before the shot is. BE even talks about imagining an extra target at the end of some arrays so you don't do that. I've got a great educational (for me) video of me shooting one target while already looking at the next one.. the result is about as expected.

[Flexmoney]

    That's what's going on, in my case. Call it rushing, lack of patience, lack of follow through, whatever - it all boils down to the same basic thing

For me, I feel there is a distinction.

I think of the rushing (need for speed) as the root cause of the lack of visual patience and follow through.

Somehow, my mind gets caught up with the mental picture of "I ought to be shooting NOW". For me, the result is that I will take shots (and hits) that are "on brown" when transitioning into a target...instead of having the visual patience to allow the gun to settle into the center of the intended target (A-zone).

Same thing on follow-through. The desire is, often, to get on to the next thing.

All this seems to come form a desire to go fast....from expectations of what the shooting should be like.

After all, there is something that is getting in the way of doing it perfect, right? I think it might be this underlying desire..this expectation.

If we can quiet the desire, can we then get back to the goal? Can we allow the goal to not be displaced by the desire?

For that, I think we need to be able to trust ourselves...and, we need to define the goal (clearly, for each target/activity) so that we can let out body/mind accomplish that task.

Anyway...that is a long way of saying that I think the rushing...the desire...the expectations get in the way of a better, more fundamental, goal.

[XRe]

    That's what's going on, in my case. Call it rushing, lack of patience, lack of follow through, whatever - it all boils down to the same basic thing

For me, I feel there is a distinction.

I think of the rushing (need for speed) as the root cause of the lack of visual patience and follow through.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you're right... I was just getting at, regardless of what I'm doing is called... I'm not actually *calling* the shot... for whatever reason Thanks for pulling it apart, though - it's good to go through the semantics of the different ways rushing can manifest...

I haven't dissected down the final root cause as to what's causing me to rush - I'm not sure it's actually important to consciously know that right now, anyhow. There's definitely a desire to shoot fast, right now - and a struggle between what I remember shooting feeling like when I stopped several years ago (shooting an Open gun at a low-M level) and what I'm actually capable of driving the gun like now. Heck, I've only shot, like, 500 rounds since I bought this pistol back in March, and none of it in structured live fire practice. I've had this issue in the past, and livefire practice was my way through it then. Seems like it would help a bunch, now, and I'm really chomping at the bit to get to it