Raw Speed Vs Controlled Speed - Again

[Clay1]

I was practicing just the other day and after a few warm up draws got serious about grip and rip draws at 3 paces. I shot a .60, .60 and .64 for 3 in a row. Two As and a C. I then backed up to 10 yards. I used the comstock feature on the Mark IV and shot 10 in a row from 10 yards. 8 As and 2 Cs. The total was 139 seconds for an average of 1.39 for a draw.

My question is that I do posess the raw speed to physically move the gun, but at 10 yards when I shoot with my spedometer - my eyes to try and shoot As - I'm damn slow. I read about guys shooting the fastest that they can and getting in the .8s, but then their 10 yard A zone draws are 1.1 or 1.0.

I could be my index and that is why I am dry firing more than I ever have. Still not even once a day though. But the index isn't all that bad.

I do think that it has something to do with trust though. My draw hits, the sights are there and then I might slightly hesitate to make sure that they are there.

When I first qualified I shot a special qualifier that had 4 COF. Two of them I shot clean - did not drop a point. One COF I dropped one point and the other one - well that's another story. I went from that to feeling like I needed to speed up and proceeded to blow a bunch of classifiers in a row trying to shoot them beyond my ability and having mikes or hitting no shoots. I did that for a few months. I am now back on track trying to shoot As in production. It has been a long way around the block, but I can still hit what I am aiming at and I am a lot faster than when I started. I just think that I still should be faster. C class shooter trying to get better.

Comments would be appreciated. Am I on the right track?

Rick

[Ron Ankeny]

I came into IPSC from the precision shooting sports where you never break a shot unless the wobble zone is minimized and the sight picture is perfect, and then some. As a result, I suffered horribly from overaiming. As a B class shooter, my par time draw to an 8 inch plate at 10 yards was 1.8-1.9 seconds. It took me a long time to see what I needed to see to make the shot and nothing more. I am guessing you probably diagnosed what is going on with,

I do think that it has something to do with trust though. My draw hits, the sights are there and then I might slightly hesitate to make sure that they are there.

Another possibility is you might be waiting for the gun to stabilize at the end of the draw stroke. If you thrust the gun out and it bounces like a tuning fork, it will take time for the gun to settle down. When you go all out at 3 yards, you are probably torching the round off before you even get to the end of the stroke. I'll shut up now and let the quick draw pistoleros chime in with thier take.

[Loves2Shoot]

Why practice draws at 3 paces? You have to aim at ten yards so it takes longer and is different draw. Draws at 15 are the ticket in my book.

If you can get 1.1's every time you don't need work on your draw. You read alot, is all of it true? .8's are hard to believe unless you are shooting open. It is VERY hard to aim a limited gun in .8 at 10 yards.

Just my 2 cents

[Ben Stoeger]

Rick,

Although we have not met yet, I have heard from others in the State about your shooting development. I have also watched your posting here.

You possess accuracy, speed, and motivation. From what I have heard, you are really suffering from "trying".

I of course, am no top dog shooter, so take this for what you think its worth. But what I would do in your situation, is this:

1. Gather all of my target stands and a ton of ammo and targets.

2. Go out to the range and set up some stages. (small obviously, but make sure they have movement and reloads and stuff)

3. Leave your timer at home. It is tempting to bring it, but don't

4. Just shoot the stages. See what happens. Vary the challenges. Find your "groove"

I have done this a few times, and It is always a great session.

[Clay1]

Thanks for the comments guys. Loves2 the .8 was referring to an in your face target and not a 10 yarder. In that same sentence I did say 10 yards at 1.1 or 1.0. Thanks for the comments and the tips.

I have a ways to go to get better that's all. I shot a league night tonight and then after everyone left I hung around and shot another 100 rounds.

Ben, thanks for the comments. Have a long way to go. Obviously, I am not as motivated as some of the dry fire gurus or I would be better by now. Still have a long way to go to come close to you.

You guys are right though the in your face target is not the target to be great at, I would much prefer to shoot better at the 10 yarder and if I could always shoot below 1.5 at 15 yards I think I would be happy - until the next goal is reached.

[Pierruiggi]

I say the following with humility.

I don't think it's a matter of "controlled" speed. It's movement while being visually focused.

I have had best results (speed and accuracy) when instead of drawing and aiming, I aim while drawing. That is, (if stage procedure allows) pick the spot I want to hit on the target while the RO gives me the Standby command, and I shift my focus to where I know (by experience) the front sight will be. It's somehow hard to focus (I'm talking eye lens focus here, not mental focus) on empty space, but it's possible. That way, at the beep, when the gun arrives it's already "aimed" and I actually break the shot just as I'm finishing extending the gun.

Take a look at Phil Strader's shoot-reload-shoot videos in Steve Anderson's website and you'll see he seems to shoot just when he reaches (or maybe even before) full extension, both in the draw and in the reload.

You can also check out Matt Burkett's website for a demo video of his DVD series (forgot which volume) where he draw-shoot-reload-shoot in what seemed like less than 1.5 second. He seems to shoot before full extension too. He's using an open gun though so maybe things are different.

Of course I don't know what technique Mr. Strader or Mr. Burkett use, but perhaps it's something worth experimenting with.

So, in short, a question to consider. Are you seeing the sights when they arrive the spot you want to shoot or you pick them up earlier?

[Clay1]

Focus is on target and then shift to sights as they arrive. I did read someone say before that they almost cause a blurred vision focus so that when the gun arrives it is in focus. Was that in the Enos book too?

Something to try.

[shred]

Try drawing relaxed (aka: slower) in practice. It's stunning how close to a speedy-yank-throw-wobble draw a nice slow, smooth index-and-shoot draw is.

[38supPat]

Videotape your practice.

Typically what I see with shooters that are blazing fast on close draws and slow on longer ones, is that they slow the whole draw stroke down on longer draws. You want the gun to move from point A (holster) to point B (mounted) at the same speed regardless of target difficulty. The difference then is just the amount of refinement you need before firing the shot.

[Ron Ankeny]

Pat makes a good point. I just assume everyone knows the time for the draw stroke is the same no matter how difficult the shot, with the additional time spent on the sights and fire control.

[38supPat]

It's one of the most common reasons for slow draws I see

[Clay1]

Maybe I am slowing down on the draw at greater distances, but since I have only watched Matt Burkett's a few dozen times and heard him say the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean that I listened. I really think that I don't trust my index like I should and I hesitate to overly verify the sight picture.

As Brian would say it is learning what you really need to see and no more. On a type one focus I do not even see the sights but focus on the target and just trust my index and the trigger goes bang fast (for me). On the 10 yarders I do think that the muzzle movement at the end of the fast draw (I think - but will verify) bounces some and my speedometer (eyes) wants to see it settle more before the pull trigger command is given to the brain.

It does bother me that the time over doubles. Something to work on. Thanks again for all of the comments and good ideas.

Rick

[benos]

I could be my index and that is why I am dry firing more than I ever have.  Still not even once a day though.

Then you're not really even dry firing. If you want to get really good - in practice, pop .90 to 1.10 10 yard A's all day long - you gotta get really serious about dry firing. You may almost have to become obsessed with it - the more you do it the more you wanna do it. You'll know when you're serious about dry firing when after you've dry fired for 10 - 15 minutes - you don't want to stop. And then after you do stop, you'll be thinking about what you want to experiment with in your next dry firing session.

I do think that it has something to do with trust though.  My draw hits, the sights are there and then I might slightly hesitate to make sure that they are there.

That will dramatically improve by increasing your dry firing practice. To begin with, your goal should be draw your pistol, or pick it up off a table, close your eyes, and stick it out in front of your face (in your freestyle position) - and have the sights perfectly lined up. Then you learn to do that same thing on a fairly small target. This make take some years of practice, depending on your temperament, motor skills, and dedication. Then you have to learn to do that at speed.

Stick with it - all top shooters have a fantastic "index." They can pretty much shoot anything they can see, without a whole lot of effort/confirming/aiming going on.

be

[Ben Stoeger]

Once a day "isnt even really dry firing". I wonder what Steve will come on here and say...

[benos]

I didn't read any responses before posting....

So, in short, a question to consider. Are you seeing the sights when they arrive the spot you want to shoot or you pick them up earlier?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a good question with which to guide your awareness. As a beginner, and often after many years of experience - we tend to only see "one thing at a time." "Stop and go shooting" we could call it. As the examples regarding Phil and Matt suggest - there's no stop and go shooting going on at all. The sights are "picked up" (seen) as they're coming on to the target - so they fire at the earliest opportunity.

After many years of practice, one of the last tricks I learned was to see the next target before the gun got there. The goal is to remember seeing the target before the gun got there. Once a stage starts, usually we remember (if we remember anything ) seeing "one thing at a time." We remember seeing the gun/sights on each target, but we don't remember anything between that. That's not "keeping your eyes moving." The top shooter can keep track of so many things at once, it's crazy.

I'm always looking for something specific, but I'm seldom looking at any one place for too long.

Say the stage is the Steel Challenge's Roundabout, shooting L-R; 1,2,3,4, stop.

"Shooter ready, stand by" - I'm looking right at the target (15 yds) - "beep" - immediately my vision pulls back to close to where the sights will appear; by the time the sights arrive on the target, I have them in clear focus. "Bang-ding" - Immediately my eyes move to the next target (7 yds), as soon as it is seen as a "round object" (located), I'm bringing my eyes back to the gun/sights, which may be seen as a blur as they land on, or "come into" the target. "Bang-ding." Immediately on the bang, my eyes are looking for the center of the round shape of target 3 (15 yds); as soon as I've found/seen that, my eyes are coming back for the sights, and I will see a fairly clear sight alignment STOP on that target. "Bang-ding." Instantly my eyes are off in search of target 4 (7 yds) - as soon as I've found it as a round object I'm quickly looking for the sights, cause they're gonna be on the target real quick. "Bang-ding." With no interuption at all, my eyes are looking to lock onto the stop plate, then I'll wait for the sights to get there before hitting the trigger.

In that way you're always looking for something specific, but you're never staring at anything.

be

[Clay1]

Thanks for the great comments Brian appreciate the insight. I understand quite well that I am not where the better shooters are. It seems like I need to make somekind of decision to either go for it, or do nothing more than I am now. You either pick up the pace or you backslide there is no standing still. The next level of commitment is a substaintial one. Thanks again,

Rick

[Pierruiggi]

Perhaps it would help to visualize everything (draw, different types of focus, sights, target aquisition, sight picture, etc.) as one continous flowing event rather than many separate actions.

[Paladin]

Brian pretty much said it all..I would like to add 1 comment re: the dry firing. Use the same draw speed/technique always irrespective of target distance or difficulty.. what will be different however is your level of visual attention which has to be at its peak for a difficult shot..visual attention at its highest peak gives the feeling that the gun is shooting itself and you are just hanging on for the ride!!

A 'trick' I use was actually to force myself to see a full sight picture on each shot for a speed shoot..with that approach, longer range shots at speed were a breeze and when I miss it was usually because of poor trigger control.. also as my index and 'trusting' got better I found too that the sights very always there right in front of me..it was just whether I choose to see it...