Combined Stages

[Patrick Sweeney]

Some of the 3-gunners here have started doing stages that require two different guns.  As an official old fart, I'm not sure of what I think of it.  Any of youse guys done this?

My problems with it are two:

If a guy only shows up to do one or two of the three guns, he's locked out of the multiple-gun stages.  We have guys show up for 3-gun just with handguns, for the practice.  They can't shoot, and the club doesn't get their entry fee.

I'm not keen on people ditching guns to get the next one, in case there might still be a round left behind.  And if they do leave a round behind in their 870/AR/1911?  Yes, a DQ, but the RO and competitor were downrange during it.

But, I could be an old lady on this one.

[Flexmoney]

We shoot stages with multiple guns on a stage.

No worries here.

We often start with the shotgun, run it dry, then move to the next shooting position...where we pick the next gun off a table or something.

It is all in the stage design.  Look for more lateral movement, less going down range.

[ErikW]

Yeah, we do that at Richmond. Generally, shoot one gun, unload it, and put it down, pick up an unloaded one, maybe repeat for a third. Set up barrels or something which directs the put-down gun to the side berms or side walls where the shooter and RO won't later walk in front of it. As an RO, I'll take a quick look at the tabled gun after I watch the shooter unload it. Pretty easy to see an open shotgun is unloaded, generally easy to see an open pistol, and kind of hard to see the chamber of an open AR15. As a shooter, I'll generally try to lock open the guns I leave down after inspecting them. For a gun that doesn't lock open I'll dry fire it just to be sure.

A major drawback is the time involved, which severely lowers the high hit factor. Not to mention unloading one gun, then walking back and verifying the first gun is clear, then going up and scoring.

Another drawback is the need to have multiple ammo sources on your belt, maybe in addition to your handgun. It sucks to go prone.

A major drawback as a shooter is going from long gun to pistol really destroys my pistol shooting. Mainly from shotgun.

Oh yeah, and another big drawback ...  the scoring software isn't set up to handle a Minor rifle and Major pistol, Major shotgun and Minor pistol, or whatever. We just pretend it's a one-gun match and score everybody Major.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Yes, I'd forgotten about the loading/unloading, checking multiple guns.  That's one of the reasons Second Chance gave up on the old Rolling Thunder event.  Four guys, with main guns and backup guns, reloads, etc.  Just getting them all loaded and unloaded, and checked, was a major hassle.

[midvalleyshooter]

My experience backs up what Eric wrote. Shooters must clear their guns on the fly and the biggest worry is the RO/SO cannot see in the chamber while a stage is in progress. Also the transistion between weapons and clearing of same can lead to some slow running stages.

Now when I was a cowboy action shooter every stage required 4 sometimes 5 guns. But cowboy stages are virginia count and shot on all steel usually, IE you fire 5 with handgun reholster, repeat with other handgun, then load and shoot scattergun, then shoot rifle. Handguns are loaded with 5, rifles are loaded with required rounds only and chamber is empty and shotguns start empty action open. Most of the cowboy stages have loading and unloading tables so the guns are ready to go. Plus you don't go down range to score cowboy stages, they run fast.

If you could run a stage using modern weapons with self reseting steel targets or have spotters call hits on stationary steel it would speed things up. Then if you used supervised loading and unloading tables for the shotguns and had the other guns and gear staged and ready to go you might run a modern type 3 gun stage as fast as the cowboys do. One thing I learned is not to underestimate the difficulty to transistion weapon types. Especially when they are manually operated:<O

Love the semiautos,

Keith

[chp5]

In the upcoming Area 6 3G, there's two stages where you start shooting a long gun and have your unloaded pistol in the holster. Later in the stage you place the long gun on a table, draw and load your pistol, and finish the stage.

It makes me slightly nervous to run around shooting a long gun with have my pistol in my CR Speed.

Question: Is it permissable under the rules to use a Production/IDPA style holster on the combined gun stages AND use my CR Speed on the pistol stages?

Stated another way - can you use different holsters on different stages in a match under the rules?

Thanks.

[George]

There were ten stages using 3 (or more) guns at the MGM Iron Man 3 gun match last month. 100 shooters of varying skill levels got through it safely using the unload and discard method of transitioning (in most cases). We also did hot reholstering, and multiple transitions to rifle, and back to pistol (both carried hot, of course) on one stage and had zero problems.

I propose the following clearing method for unloading on the fly during a course of fire. Simply have the shooter drop mag (if applicable), rack action (until empty in the case of shotguns), inspect as well as they care to then close action, drop the hammer/striker with the trigger in a safe direction (read downrange and into the berm here). If you get a click then you get to sling/holster/discard and move on. If you get a bang it's a DQ, stop, pack it up and go home (you treat this the same as an AD during re-loading). This allows the shooter to perform the clearing at his own pace, and penalizes failure immediately. Using this method, the action does not need to be left open to know a gun is safe.

As far as prep time goes, shotguns can be pre-loaded (under supervision, of course), then left on a table facing into a berm. At the MGM 3 gun, the average stage turn time was about 15 minutes (or more) per shooter. 5 minutes is enough time to get ready for anything if your mags are already loaded.

The typical load I carried to start any given stage at the MGM went something like this: Three to four 30 round AR mags, four 28 round pistol mags, two Choate loader trays with slugs, or buckshot in them, eight to twelve shotgun speed loader sticks (plus a two-pak, and sidesaddle on shotgun), and one holstered pistol (sometimes hot). With this amount of gack on me, I went prone, climbed rappelling towers, and generally gyrated all over the place with no problems whatsoever because I set my gear up for this type of action.

If you are worried about pistol only shooters being able to go through the stages, try designing the stages so all targets can be engaged by pistol if need be. Say you have 40 yard upper A/B shots from rifle to start a stage, just let the pistol only guys advance downrange close enough to engage these targets later in the stage instead of at the start. Anything shotguns can engage, can also be engaged with pistol. Just recognize a pistol only divisi0on in the scoring. You could even define the pistol portion of the stage as the only portion that gets run by these folks, then score them in a separate match. If you want the money that the pistol only guys represent badly enough, then there are plenty of ways to skin this cat. My real feeling here is that "if it's a 3 gun match, bring 3 guns if ya' wanna' shoot it".

IMHO, if you are really into 3 gun shooting and you do not trust your pistol in it's holster, then you need to get a better holster. My feeling on this matter is if you can't run, jump, and climb without holding your pistol in your holster, then you don't have a "holster", you have a speed shelf! I have seen shooters with holsters that have locking mechanisms give themselves speed wedgies when they speed draw without disengaging the lock ;-) Murphy's law says that anything that you have to think about, will be forgotten during a course of fire.

Regards,

[PacMan]

I don't know why you gents are so nervous about having a hot pistol in your holster (well, the real kind, not that skeletonized thing) It's not going to go off by itself. Stages with multiple guns are so much more fun and challenging, you have to be well versed in all 3 weapons. Yes, it does take more time to get competitors through, but you can always have a staging area for the next shooter to get all weapons situated.

I can't imagine showing up to a 3 gun match with only a pistol! Seems to be a waste of effort.

[rhino]

The hot holstering fear is something that puzzles me too.

Perhaps the people who fear having a loaded gun in their holster do not carry loaded guns on a daily basis?

[Correia]

We do transitions all the time. No problems, just requires good stage design.

[SJ]

In addition to the above good info, I encourage the cowboy style of having an exact number of rounds loaded and shot in any gun that is going to be left behind. The worst ND I ever saw was at a combined shotgun-pistol stage that could be largely attributed to bad stage design:

The stage started with shotgun loaded with 5 slugs. The shooter was to engage 4 paper targets at about 25 yards (1 round required on each), then leave the shotgun locked open on the table and advance to engage some pistol targets. The shooters were strongly reminded that the shotgun must be left empty. You can see where this is going. Most shooters engaged the four targets and then shot the 5th round at the farthest target or the one they thought was the most questionable. One new (to competition) shooter engages the four targets, then from the hip elevates the shotgun to about 45 degrees angle, and fires off the 5th slug to clear the shotgun . The shooter may have been more used to trap and skeet, I don't know. Goodbye, thanks for playing.

[PacMan]

If the stage required 4 slug shots, why have them loaded 5 as the requirement? If weapon manipulation was the intent, then clearly spell out that the shooter must clear the gun without firing it.

My opinion of the "cowboy-style" with the exact number of rounds in the gun is only a band-aid approach. Besides, this is 3 gunning where true gunning-running is still part of the game. Let's not dilute it with others shooting disciplines.

[WRanger]

Patrick,

The transition stages at your MI 3-gun champs went well...competitors shot dry/dropped mag/emptied and took responsibility...all movement was lateral, so no competitors went down range of an "empty gun"....all guns were verified empty and secured before anyone went down range after shooting. Your ROs did a good job...no reason why those kinds of stages can't be continued, as they were a lot of fun.....

On the stage where we started with a hot holstered pistol (and shot shotgun), most of us just engaged the holster lock (though some couldn't get it undone). As an "open" competitor, I use a CR Speed holster and set the lock on these kinds of stages....just swipe off the lock when drawing....

As a paying customer, I'd recommend you tell people that "a 3 gun match is a 3 gun match"....if one does not have 3 guns, don't bother those of us who do".....you have a regular USPSA match, as well as your monthly 3-gun match, and that should be enough..

BTW, thanks to your club for putting on 2 matches each month, and hosting two state championships this year. Will you be at the Central States ICORE match this Sunday?

WRanger

[PacMan]

WRanger, I think I know what you meant by .."if one does not have 3 guns, don't bother those of us who do" for those who just wanted to come to these 3 gun matches for practice with their pistols. In the case of newbies & not have the right gear or gun, but wanted to try out, I would suggest that we welcome and assist them. Us guys at RM3G always offered to loan newbies our gears (under close supervision, of course).

[WRanger]

PacMan,

Yes!..I agree with you completely, and thank you for softening my "made for show" comment. All I was trying to communicate to Patrick is that if he is going to hold a special 3-gun match, people who have no interest in shooting 3-gun should not be accomodated at the expense of the 3-gunners. Its about a 2-hour drive for me to Patrick's range and I don't want to be there all day waiting to shoot behind people who aren't "participating in the match." His club recently held a shotgun-only fun match (that was much fun!)........though it could have been done, it would have been silly to allow people with pistols to shoot the special match. Same with 3-gun........

Of course, the club can do as it pleases (as can I). We've had such a good time shooting matches there that I wanted to provide Patrick with some feedback (as he requested). Thanks, again, for your wise counsel.

WRanger

[Patrick Sweeney]

One note: the original thread was started quite some time ago, so some of the questions were answered long before it was brought up again.

1) the handgun-only guys are the regular club shooters on regular club 3-gun days. for the State match we specified you'd shoot all 3 or be sent home.

2) The "fear" of a hot holstered gun comes from an incident in an international match (a World Shoot?) where a competitor re-holstered a hot gun and drilled his leg with an ND.

I've gotten over my "old fart" resistance to combo stages. But the whole hot holster and retention situation still worries me as long as we have speed/skeleton rigs in use.

And yes I plan to be at the ICORE match this Sunday. After the drubbing I got from Jerry at the FGN, I feel it is only fair to pass it on to anyone I can.