Weapon Mounted Lights Question

[Duane Thomas]

I recently had a fascinating conversation with John Matthews, president of SureFire, on the challenges involved in designing a durable handgun mounted flashlight. According to John, when a realistic defense type handgun fires, the shock transmitted to the attached light can be up to 3,000 gravities. While the overall level of recoil of a 9mm, .40, .45, etc. might, in the overall scheme of things, be not all that much, what's important is that the shock is so suddenly applied. According to John, typical filament-type flashlight bulbs have a tendency not to survive repeated applications of this level of shock. What SureFire did, which no other company has, was (1) designed a shock-isolation system into their lights which cuts the force applied to the light down to two or three hundred gravities which is much more survivable, (2) got away from filaments in their WeaponLights and use LED (Light Emitting Diode) technology instead, which is much tougher.

I've known John Matthews for years, and I know him to be a good and honest man, so I don't doubt his word. At the same time, I'm very curious about your experiences out there. Anyone have much experience with SureFire WeaponLights and/or other brands? How do the SureFires stand up? Other brands? How do they compare? Enquiring minds (at least, my enquiring mind) want to know. This is info that will go into an article on weapon mounted lights and lasers for Handguns magazine, BTW.

[EricW]

I have the handheld units which use the same bulb technology, I believe. SureFire has hands-down the best damned bulbs on the market. Absolutely no question in my mind. Filaments on high intensity flashlight characteristically become VERY weak when they're hot. (I spent a lot of moolah on Maglite bulbs back when it was the forefront of technology) I've dropped my SF while it's on a LOT (I'm a total klutz) and every time I expect the filament to break...and it never does. Their bulbs also seem to run longer than anything else.

Please give us the inside scoop on the X200. I've wanted to buy a light, but haven't because I've heard all of them fall apart if you leave them on the gun and..gasp!...shoot it.

BTW, the correct physics term you are looking for is "impulse."

[Chriss Grube]

I have a surefire mounted on my duty 870 and it has survived for 8 years. Lots of teams using the surefires with no problems.

[Chuck Anderson]

Duane, you are right about the x200 series. However, SureFire has many weapon mounted lights that are not LED based. LED has some advantages and disadvantages. Disadvantages would be that you can't use it with an IR filter (I know, you're all disappointed) and that the focusing of the beam becomes a lot more difficult than with the filament bulb. SureFire has two solutions for this. One is to use a pretty standard looking reflector. This if bright but the beam is not very focused. An example would be the L4. The other is the lens used on the X200 which is a focusing lens. It projects a very tight spot. This is designed to be able to identify a target at 30 yards. Advantages are the are rock solid, won't break and run time is a little longer.

All the remaining SureFire Weaponlights use shock isolated bulbs. These work great as well, they are just bulkier. I've used a SureFire forend on my 870 for years and never had a bulb break.

Now for the remaining part of your question, run screaming from other lights. I'm a firearms instructor for an agency with around 350 sworn members. I cannot count the number of M-3 and M-6 lights from Streamlight that I've seen break. So far, every time that I've had a night qual with one or more M-3's on the line at least one breaks. Most common problems are the switch mechanism, contacts breaking and bulb breaking.

With the X200's I've also seen a few break. They were all at the same spot, the rear contacts broke. SureFire redesigned the contacts and these were older models. The newer ones seem to run like champs. I've got one on my Glock 40, which, in my opinion, is one of the hardest guns on weapon lights. I've got around 5000 rounds downrange with the light on and no problems.

[Duane Thomas]

Thanks for the info, guys. This is the sort of stuff I needed.

[GuildSF4]

I have hand held Surefire lights, and based on my experience they are extremely good. I have had a 6Z for more than 5 years, no issues, and never had to replace the bulb. I now carry and use for work an E2e which I have had for a couple years (I used to use a mini-mag light and had to replace bulbs about one a month, with the E2e (which fits in the minimag holster) I have never had to replace the bulb, and I use the light all the time (I go thru about 1 - 2 sets of batteries per month).

The Streamlight I had didn't hold up as well, and the light output was lower.

PS: The E2e gets dropped a lot while working on machines, still going strong.

PSS: The guys at work liked the light so much they had the company order some for them.

Edited May 29, 2005 by GuildSF4

[Mike H]

Wouldn't use anything else for pistol, shotgun or carbine. I have always taken the lite and batteries out when I'm training. Saves the wear and tear of multiple shots on the mechanism, when imo there's no neeed for the abuse during an all -day training session. Especially if the agency/dept footing the bill is tight with $$.

THE best lite product out there, hands down.

[Clay1]

Just stumbled across this thread with a search under laser, but oh well I don't stay on task very well.

Lawman, curious about your experiences with the new lights from Streamlight the X series which are shockproof and have isolated light bulbs and are much brighter, almost 2X as their non-X rated counter parts. Have you seen better performance with the X series?

Rick

[Chuck Anderson]

We don't have anyone using the X series from Streamlight. The lenses are longer and don't fit in the holsters that work with the M-3's. And to be perfectly honest, I don't buy their light output claims. Nothing to back it up, but I don't know how they can double the output, same battery life and in roughly the same size package without substantially changing the bulb assembly, which they haven't. Holding the two up I can't see that big of a difference. I called SureFire with this question. They wouldn't come out and say it but they seemed a bit skeptical as well. Measuring Lumens output takes some pretty sophisticated equipment. It's a measurement of the total output, not just the hotspot as with candlepower. The new SureFire catalogs have a much more in depth explanation on this, as in much more than any sane person should want to know, I felt like I needed a PhD to figure out half of what they were talking about.

[Clay1]

I just bought Inova T3 and it says that it has 80 lumens. I also have a Surefire C2. The C2 is rated at 65 lumens. When I look at both of the lights it is a no contest the 65 lumen C2 kicks the T3's rear.

I think that some companies are using a little creative writting skills when they advertise. My M3X is definately brighter than my C2.

This link is an independant comparison of output and throw charts of handheld lights. I find the numbers here much more realistic to actual observed results. I just wish they did a review of weapon's lights. http://www.flashlightreviews.com/features/chart_manu.htm

If you look at the T3 it is rated at 45.83 and 28. The C2 is rated at 59.45 and 52. The first number is throw and the second is what he calls overall which is not a lumen rating (expensive equipment) but is still a relavant number of brightness. Throw is more a spot rating.

[Heath]

I just bought Inova T3 and it says that it has 80 lumens.  I also have a Surefire C2.  The C2 is rated at 65 lumens.  When I look at both of the lights it is a no contest the 65 lumen C2 kicks the T3's rear.

I think that some companies are using a little creative writting skills when they advertise.  My M3X is definately brighter than my C2. 

This link is an independant comparison of output and throw charts of handheld lights.  I find the numbers here much more realistic to actual observed results.  I just wish they did a review of weapon's lights.  http://www.flashlightreviews.com/features/chart_manu.htm

If you look at the T3 it is rated at 45.83 and 28.  The C2 is rated at 59.45 and 52.  The first number is throw and the second is what he calls overall which is not a lumen rating (expensive equipment) but is still a relavant number of brightness.  Throw is more a spot rating.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Inova T3 uses a Luxeon III emitter which is rated at 80 lumens. This simply means that most of them output about 80 lumens. They are usually sold in bins which determine color, output, and forward voltage. The better bins are generally more expensive and one can only order based on two of three variables. I'm not sure if Inova purchased specific bins, but if they did, it's likely that they simply ignored forward voltage, since most current regulators account for it quite easily.

It should be noted that the emitter is rated at 80 lumens without any sort of lens or reflector. Measuring lumens accurately requires an integrating sphere which captures all the light projected from the emitter. This measurement gives no indication of the relative throw of given light. Up to 10-15% of the light emitted can be lost due to the relative efficiency of the collimating lens or reflector.

To get a good throw, larger reflectors are more effective. The tighter the point source, the more intense the central spot. Lux I's and III's have a single emitter die that's much smaller than an incandescent filament. Lux V's have four dies which make for a larger source. I have a Lux III in a NiMH powered Mag 2C which has the standard 2" reflector, which is pretty large for this emitter. It's effective out to a couple hundred yards, but the spot is almost too tight to illuminate stuff that's very close.

[Chuck Anderson]

Not sure about some of the results on that list. Some of the results on the SureFire portion seem a bit out of whack. At a glance I know the Aviator is not anywhere near as bright as a E2E. Heath's got it right. There's a huge variable in the Luxeon LED's. Actually any LED is going to have variations due to the way they are constructed. I'm curious to do a little comparison of my own. I use a L4 Lumamax on duty, I just picked up an L5 off the prize table at Area 3. They're both 5 watt Luxeon, 6 volt systems, rated at 65 lumens. The L5 uses a much longer reflector assembly though. I'm curious what the light output/range is like for both. Something I've noticed with a LOT of other manufacturers with the LED lights is that they use poor reflectors. They're just as bright if you look directly at them, but the beam disperses in a very short distance. Some even go as far as to not use a reflector. I've seen lights that basically just have 5+ LED's mounted into the front of the light. Unless you're just looking for a close up task light I'd stay well clear of these.

[EricW]

BTW,

Put a couple hundred rounds downrange the other day with the X200 on the G19. It was daytime, but I figured what the heck. What I learned:

1) The X200 won't break in 200 rounds

2) The lens gets very sooty quickly on a G19.

3) The X200 makes an OUTSTANDING frame weight. If only it were production legal... If I had a wife or gf that had a pistol for personal protection, I would slap an X200 on their gun if only for the reason of shootability.

The Tac light now has maybe 30 to 40 miles of bouncing around in the belt pack, with no inadvertent activations that leave you with a dead battery. I am *very* pleased with the light, and even happier with Lawman's service.