ShooterGrrl's CRO stage

[Shooter Grrl]

Here's the one I just turned in for my CRO Final.

[Flexmoney]

Note: I seperated SG's stage so that we could run it throught the wringer seperate from Nick's...they both deserve their own threads, I think

Here is a cooment from Ron Ankeny that I edited from the other post, since it now goes with this thread:

Kathy:

A couple of suggestions. If you set your stage up at a state match or higher I doubt that anyone would bother with the drop turner. Assuming a competitor would need to take a step or more to the activator, there is no compelling reason to shoot the DT. I know I wouldn't shoot it based upon what I see in the diagram. Also, anytime there are targets on both sides of an area, sooner or later there will be a competitor push the 180 really close. Rich Redovian showed me a little trick. You can place a visual indicator on the ground or wall, such as a piece of surveyor's tape, where potential 180 violations are evident. The visual indicator is for use by the RO. If the gun (not the shooter) is past the indicator, the 180 has been broken. That aid saved my behind at our state shoot. One of my feet was on the 180. but my upper body and pistol were well behind. One of the guys in the peanut gallery remarked, "Well I guess it's kind of hard to DQ the match director". While it's true the peanut gallery has no business second guessing the RO, a quick reminder of why we had a little red flag on the ground settled the matter pronto.

Ron

[Flexmoney]

Ron, she caught us with a rule there...

You have to activate the the target, or take the penalties. (Would a gamer activate it after they were done shooting?)

The question then becomes...is there anything to shoot while waiting on the target to activate.

[Jim Norman]

5 targets on each side of the FFZ? not exactly 9 round max from one position, Yes I realize that all the targets appear to be visible once you pass through the door. How aboua couple barricades or walls to break up the arrays so that an open shooter doesn't just open the door and hose then hit the activator?

To me a good stage is all about options and while it can be argued that you can swing back and forth as you move forward doen the FFZ, I don't think that is a real "Option"

If the walls are just orange mesh that the shooter can see through, I am not sure that I like the concept. Maybe it is regional, we use fence sections with slats missing or ports or spaces between them. I realize that the walls are "Soft Cover". Generally we reserve soft cover for places like that at the end of your COF where a partial target is exposed and the balance is hidden completely from view, usualy we use black plastic to block the target from view except for the "Upper A/B"

Jim Norman

[Flexmoney]

SG,

Ready for the gaming?

Since you don't make me do so in the Procedure...I might not go thru the door at all.

I might start outside the fault lines, likely near T7, facing the right side array. At the signal, step in as I draw, engage the right array form a sweet spot, engage the left array from the sweet spot (my gun holds 21 rounds), fling the door open while leaving the position, hit my reload, take the steel on the way in to the activator pad, then swinger, DT, swinger.

Hit factor...10+

I really like the movers behind the soft-cover. Pretty cool. And, the T7-T8 setup is very nice.

[XRe]

I think the intent is clear, here, but as Flex notes, a couple of added touches are needed Put the shooter in a definite start position that puts them outside the door and forces them to go through. Perhaps a box outside, and change stage description to "proceed through door into area A..." or something to that effect. If I'm wrong - and the intention is to allow the shooter to game the start position like that, then leave it as is

With an Open gun at the relatively close ranges we're looking at here (judging by your scale), I'd be tempted to find a sweet spot and shoot the whole stage minus the DT, then amble down and activate it without shooting it. No reload for Open guns, so no required movement - and activating the target doesn't add to time, so.... I haven't tried to figure how much those 10 points are worth to me on this stage

With my L-10 gun, it's going to be two reloads, so it's probably to my advantage to take the turner. From this perspective, too, spacing targets T4-6 and T11-13 further apart down the stage might help alleviate some of the inevitable 180 issues - or add a vision barrier or two.

If the softcover is black plastic - <shiver> If it's the orange construction fence stuff, that'd be a little easier...

[Ron Ankeny]

Flex:

I would shoot the whole thing from the sweet spots, then activate the DT. I wouldn't shoot it. Of course, that's based on what I see on paper. Once I saw the course, things could change. The only way I would take the DT is if I had the opportunity to shoot fluidly on the move and I arrived at the activator pad with something left to shoot. My gut feeling is unless there is a vision barrier that compells folks to get their butts to the activator pad, the DT will remain unscathed.

[robomanusa]

I like the stage

But I must be miss interpreting something with all the talk of not shooting the drop turner......I understand that a miss on a target that hides itself isnt scored as a miss, but, I thought you still had to make an attempt to shoot it otherwise it would be a FTE.

[Ron Ankeny]

All you need to do is to activate the target. In our state match, both Sam and I skipped a DT in order to save making a mag change (L10) with only one step to get it in. The decision paid off in spades. Unless the points (I figure 8-9 points) and the time it takes to get them will increase your overall hit factor, why bother?

Now before folks start rolling their eyes and calling me a gamer, I would shoot the turner in any local match. I always shoot the COF as the designer intended at the club level.

[John Heiter]

Do you even need to shoot the swingers on the move? They look like they would be visible when at rest. I would probably just step into Area A from the right side and shoot the the ten closest targets with my first 20 rounds, take two steps closer to the back while making my reload, and then shoot everything in back including the stationary swingers. After the last shot is fired you could open the door and then go activate the pad. Bad gaming but looks legal.

[XRe]

I'd say you're right, John - The setup would need to include something to force you to open the door to allow you to engage the swingers, too...

[Flexmoney]

I like the stage

But I must be miss interpreting something with all the talk of not shooting the drop turner......I understand that a miss on a target that hides itself isnt scored as a miss, but, I thought you still had to make an attempt to shoot it otherwise it would be a FTE.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have to activate the disappearing targets (or take penalties)...you don't have to shoot at them or hit them. See rule(s) 9.9.1 > 9.9.3

As long as they are activated...no attempt to shoot them is required...no FTE...no Miss penalties (that is someting important for a Revolver shooter to know).

[stevepitt]

Well, I like this stage and think it has several options! Good job!

The ONLY suggestion I would make is to add " T1, T2, T3 must be activated BEFORE engaging them" to the stage instructions. (I think that was the mover target #'s).

With that addition, then options I see (and there may be more)....

1) go through door (or not).

2) shoot targets on move (or sweet spot)

3) engage T2 (or not).... definitely activate it.

4) T4-T13 has several different engagement choices...

a) Shoot one side static, other side on move.

Shoot both sides static.

c) Shoot all on the move (alternating sides)

Some of the choices are dictated by scale, but I bet this stage is shot more than one way regardless of scale. I like the fact the "going through the door" isn't forced.

I'd kinda like to hear from the designer what her thoughts are now with the feedback.

Steve Pitt

[stevepitt]

ooops... I didn't mean to get that smiley in my previous reply next to the "shoot targets static" line....

Depending on the scale, shooting targets on the move is what I would like to do.

I think it would be faster.... but that's why we call it freestyle. There are others that would definitely not shot it "my way".

Again... good job on your stage design. If this is your first stage, you should have some really good ones waiting in the wings.

Steve

[Flexmoney]

The ONLY suggestion I would make is to add " T1, T2, T3 must be activated BEFORE engaging them" to the stage instructions.  (I think that was the mover target #'s).

Steve, I don't think you can require that without throwing "freestyle" out the door.

[Shooter Grrl]

SG,

Ready for the gaming?

Since you don't make me do so in the Procedure...I might not go thru the door at all.

I might start outside the fault lines, likely near T7, facing the right side array.  At the signal, step in as I draw, engage the right array form a sweet spot, engage the left array from the sweet spot (my gun holds 21 rounds), fling the door open while leaving the position, hit my reload, take the steel on the way in to the activator pad, then swinger, DT, swinger.

My 3D Drawing abilities are sadly lacking... you can't step into Area A - it's a hallway the width of the door Ya gotta open the door to get into it!

Oh yeah, there are no ports in those walls either, just orange netting that's soft cover. You're going to have to move to get to the steel, if I did the scale right, they're about 30 feet away from the door.

[Ron Ankeny]

SG:

Shouldn't the steel be 30 feet away from the activator pad?

[kimel]

Neat stage Kath. One trick I do for the 3-D challenged is to also give an "overhead" view. It REALLY helps the spatially challenged. I typically do that down in an empty corner. It doesn't have to be all that big to get the point across.

[Flexmoney]

My 3D Drawing abilities are sadly lacking...

D-oh! And, we were having so much funny gaming it up.

BTW, that is my biggest complaint about desinging stage...I hate drawing them up.

I think Bill Nesbitt's idea on drawing them up on a bar napkin might be best.

[John Heiter]

Ok, I take everything back...what we have here is a very nice stage being critiqued by gamers with bad eyes. Sorry SG, I should have known better. Now the only thing I can even think of is that the narrowness of the hallway could be an issue for an RO trying to watch the gun but that's about it.

John

[Shooter Grrl]

SG:

Shouldn't the steel be 30 feet away from the activator pad?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm bad with distances too The work crew drawing is much better, but doesn't have the written procedure as part of it so I thought this would way would be easier for you guys to critique!

[Shooter Grrl]

Now the only thing I can even think of is that the narrowness of the hallway could be an issue for an RO trying to watch the gun but that's about it.

Thanks John! I thought about the RO trap, but I think by making the hallway so narrow, it's gonna take some real effort to get the gun past 180. The hallway is only 30-36" wide (depending on the door used). My reach, with gun, is right at 2.5 feet, so it's a really tight squeeze for anyone over 5 ft tall

[Shooter Grrl]

My 3D Drawing abilities are sadly lacking...

D-oh! And, we were having so much funny gaming it up.

BTW, that is my biggest complaint about desinging stage...I hate drawing them up.

I think Bill Nesbitt's idea on drawing them up on a bar napkin might be best.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You ain't kidding about hating to draw the stages! I normally rough sketch them and build them to fit the bay. Not for the CRO course! The drawing has to be scale, and detailed enough for a range crew to build it exactly as you intended it! I think I'm going to fail I can see it clearly in my mind, but I'm not an Engineer dammit! I struggled with drawing that stage for over 3 weeks trying to get the scale and walls right and well... you see how badly that turned out!!!!!

[XRe]

D'oh.......... Ok, some setup notes might help, then So, you basically have to shoot *everything* through soft cover???

[Shooter Grrl]

D'oh.......... Ok, some setup notes might help, then So, you basically have to shoot *everything* through soft cover???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yup - except the 2 poppers, unless ya wanna