2005 Bianchi Cup News & Results

[SRT Driver]

Dirty Steve,

I can speak for myself only. I have a significant amount of money and time invested in AP, with match fees, equipment etc.

Now, for the NRA "leadership" to come in and tell everyone that it is unsafe is a joke and an insult to those who have competed and/or contributed to AP for so long.

There are other who have far more invested in the sport, in both time and money, than I do (in fact, several shooters have moved to the US to shoot) but that does not soften the impact.

At the meeting last year, it was said that the goal is to increase attendance by making AP more open to shooters from other sports. This does not mean that AP has to mirror the other sports, like bullseye.

The problem with NRA "leadership" is that most of those on the AP board have never shot a match and have no understanding of the sport. They do understand bulleye, PPC etc and it is as if they want to change AP to fit their understanding of with a pistol sport should be in their eyes. This is wrong.

As to calling Rudy, many of us did that the first time the rules were changed. The vast majority if the calls were against the rule change, by Rudy's own admission. It had no effect.

[kimmbeckwith]

Hi everyone!

I really missed this years Cup, believe me I was going through withdrawls!!! I really missed all of you to numerous to name!!!!

Kevin, thanks for all your help! I talked to Justin Blackburn during the Cup only to find out about the 3.5lb trigger rule. Hey, it's something new every year isn't it.

Yes, I didn't attend this year because of rule changes and not listening to shooters imputs. I still think the shooters gripe session is just that, and NRA is not listing.

I talked with my sponsor Zero Ammunition about this year and we decided to keep our sponsorship because of who it goes to, The Junior Champion. That was the hardest part not being there to congradulate in person and long time friend and Junior shooter, Jordan Dick of my home state.

I just don't think anyone is going to listen, that is why I did show up in 2004 and shot all 48 plates standing. To show that I could do it, no matter what the rules changes were.

I thought a rule change, as explained by NRA would help X's go down and fewer 1920's! Well 1920 were down some. I think somewhat due to shooting more than one firearm, but there still was 185 X's, Doug is somthing!!!! Going into the Mover clean on x's WOW!!!

ICASE, let me know, I have two $5000.00 paper weights if NRA keeps changing what we can use!

Kim M. Beckwith

[MBaneACP]

This is from my blog, FWIW:

Can the Bianchi Cup Survive?

First, let me say congratulations to Doug Koenig for his sixth consecutive victory at the championships of NRA Action Pistol, the Bianchi Cup, Memorial Day weekend in Columbia, MO. Here are the top three scores — the scores on the four stages, followed by the overall:

1) Doug Koenig 480-48Xs 480-48Xs 480-41Xs 480-48Xs 1920-185Xs

2) Bruce Piatt 480-43Xs 480-46Xs 480-42Xs 480-48Xs 1920-179Xs

3) Mike Voigt 478-45Xs 480-47Xs 480-36Xs 480-48Xs 1918-176Xs

Essentially, the shooters fire 192 rounds in four stages, barricades, falling plates, moving target and practical; high score on each target is an 8-inch 10-ring. Inside the 10-ring is a 4-inch "X" ring. The "Xs" were originally conceived as the tie-breakers, because a perfect score of 1920 was thought to be impossible. For the last few years, a perfect 1920 has been not only possible, but necessary to win.

Doug Koenig's performance in this year's Cup was, for all intents and purposes, as close to perfection as any pistol match ever shot in the United States! It matches and exceeds John Pride's legendary 1920-179Xs in 1995.

He shot perfect scores — 480-48Xs — on three of the four stages, dropping only 7 Xs on the mover! BTW, Koenig was second on the mover; Bruce Piatt dropped one less "X", 6 Xs, on the mover. Only six shooters shot a perfect score on the mover, and other than Koenig and Piatt, all dropped 12 or more Xs.

Both Koenig and Piatt bettered their performances over last year's Cup (2004 scores showed Koenig at 1920-177Xs and Piatt at 1918-181Xs). I assume (my scoresheet isn't broken down by division) high metallic sight goes to Rob Leatham, in 10th place overall, with 1910-153Xs and high woman, also for the sixth time, to Vera Coo in 22nd place overall with 1894-149Xs.

Again, I stand in awe of this level of shooting ability. To say the bar has risen to levels none of us could have anticipated 25 years ago is a vast, vast understatement. When I talked to Doug and Bruce on Thursday, both of them were calm, enthusiastic and for lack of a better word, light-hearted. They seemed to be having a great time as opposed to being locked in this amazing competition.

The real shocker here is Michael Voigt — President of USPSA, former World Champion in IPSC Standard Division competition and multiple time national champion in 3-gun. He's never been known as a "accuracy" shooter — just screaming fast. He changed those perceptions at this match. BTW, Voigt and I were once friends, and we do indeed have problems for which there is probably no solution. Still, this is a breath-taking exhibition of talent on Mike's part, and he has my sincere congratulations.

SOOOOOOOOOOO...after all these accolades, why is the title of the post about whether this match will survive? Again, the numbers tell the story — 147 shooters competed the match, a steady decline over the Cup's 26 years. Sponsorship was simply not NEARLY what it should be for an event of Bianchi's standard. Of the numerous gun magazines, only the NRA's SHOOTING SPORTS USA attended (there may have been "correspodents" from the other mags there; I didn't quiz everyone!). I was there for AMERICAN RIFLEMAN TV, and Jim Scoutten was there for SHOOTING USA.

In short, for the most part the industry gives it a big ole shrug. As a former match director myself, I can't imagine how I could run a match of Bianchi's quality on 150 shooters...I simply could not make the spreadsheet work!

What's the problem (s)? IMHO:

1) The lack of a comprehensive marketing plan for all the shooting sports

2) The lack of marketing/public relations help on a national level

3) The Balkanized landscape of the shooting sports, where the sports routinely snipe at each other over tiny slivers of market share

4) A lack of commitment on the part of the industry to growing the shooting sports

Unless we all start putting pressure on the industry, we're going to continue to see the some of the gold standard matches leach away, and we will all suffer for it!

So congratulations to Doug, Bruce and Mike! And fingers crossed for next year...

[EricW]

Another ignert question for y'all:

Who owns the rights to the name "Bianchi Cup?"

The NRA or Bianchi? If it's Bianchi, what's the likelihood of simply changing the venue before the financial black hole sucks down the whole mess. No way anybody's breaking even on 147 shooters...

[SRT Driver]

Thanks Michael,

This is not a personal afront by any means.

1) The lack of a comprehensive marketing plan for all the shooting sports

It is difficult to devise a comprehensive marketing plan for sports that are similar in only one respect..their use of a gun to score. This is like asking a marketing firm to promote racing. NASCAR and INDY racing are vastly different. The differences should be focused upon.

2) The lack of marketing/public relations help on a national level.

First is the need for people who are familiar with the sport in question AND skilled at promotion. Despite our passion, many of us are not skilled marketers. Skilled PR people need to get involved or have some exposure to the sport(s). You can't promote something that you don't understand.

3) The Balkanized landscape of the shooting sports, where the sports routinely snipe at each other over tiny slivers of market share.

Call it variety and the nature of the beast. I doubt that one uber shooting sport would keep anyone happy. Whereas, if you look you can find something that is interesting for you. The variety has to be focused on. The NRA is trying to create the UBER sport where everyone uses the same rules and the same equipment.

4) A lack of commitment on the part of the industry to growing the shooting sports.95% of the population will never shoot a round in a competitive venue. Less than 10% of any club that is not competition oriented, (your local shooting club - not an IPSC club) is made up of competitve shooters. The gun companies have it rough and I doubt they can afford to send more $$$ on such a small market, unless their market is competitve shooters. Companies like STI/SV etc do contribute. Companies like Ruger contribute to the hunting segment.

Maybe it's time for Bianchi to move from the NRA to an organization that understands the differences. Promote Bianchi for what it is and not change it to suit some mold.

Let's not let the NRA, or anyone else for that matter, do to the shooting sports what Robert MacNamera did in Vietnam.

[EricW]

Unless we all start putting pressure on the industry, we're going to continue to see the some of the gold standard matches leach away, and we will all suffer for it!

Mike,

Respectfully, what "industry" are you referring to? It seems like the NRA is killing this sucker all by its lonesome and really doesn't give a damn about *anybodys* input be it shooter or sponsor.

It's a common theme in the shooting sports today and EVERY sport is suffering from the same mentality of "let's dicker with the rules until we build our own little Shangri-La, a paradise and monument to our egos."

The problem is that Shangri-La generally only seems to appeal to about five or six people who actually want to live there on a full time basis.

[SRT Driver]

Eric,

The NRA took over the rights to the Bianchi Cup in '82ish and they own it.

Bianchi existed before the NRA AP program which is essentially an after thought.

[EricW]

Eric,

The NRA took over the rights to the Bianchi Cup in '82ish and they own it.

Bianchi existed before the NRA AP program which is essentially an after thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I guess we'll just have to hold out for Uncle Mike's Cup.

[AzShooter]

The problem is that Shangri-La generally only seems to appeal to about five or six people who actually want to live there on a full time basis.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually Shangri-La is a pretty nice place to live if you enjoy a nudist resort her in Phoenix.

[Dirty Steve]

SRT Driver,

I understand folks have a butt load of money invested in guns. I have two Les Baer's a Rock River and a Kimber with another one on the way (6" Rock River Slide and frame metallic shight gun.) So I know about laying out cash.

The plain fact is America has become so lawsuit happy that large organizations must concider liability. I would hate to see the NRA get sued out of existance and have no one in Washington speaking for me. With Out the NRA we would have long since lost our freedoms. Actually we could gain any of them back if we lost some. If some one has the cash needed to file a suit and take it to the Supreme Court. But it is easier to fight from loosing a right, than fight to get it back. I love guns and shooting for what they are. (Fine tools and a great challenge) Not for any other reason.

I have already contacted Rudy twice since the match and expressed my concerns. How many others have? How many have contacted Doug, Bruce or Robbie asking them to give some support and contact the NRA? I asked the limits to be 2 lbs for an Open gun and 3 lbs for a Metallic gun. I decided to set a limit every one could live with. a two pound trigger is reasonable for an Open gun. The Open gun has only one purpose and can serve only as a match gun. Sure some folks are going to say well my gun has a 12 oz trigger and I never had an AD. Well that's fine and dandy but the AD is coming for that shooter. Sure a Liability Waiver can and should indemnify the NRA of accidents. The gunsmith making the trigger pull so light is going to be more liable than the NRA but a lawyer would go for the deepest pockets. Having waivers signed would prevent a judgement, but legal costs would still be incured if an accident happened.

Sorry for the rant. I had to be tactfull this time so I could save the moderator a lot of time

So I urge every one to write the Board and push for a reasonable trigger pull limit and the use of Liability Waivers.

Dirty Steve, Out.

[Allgoodhits]

SRT Driver,

I understand folks have a butt load of money invested in guns. I have two Les Baer's a Rock River and a Kimber with another one on the way (6" Rock River Slide and frame metallic shight gun.) So I know about laying out cash.

The plain fact is America has become so lawsuit happy that large organizations must concider liability. I would hate to see the NRA get sued out of existance and have no one in Washington speaking for me. With Out the NRA we would have long since lost our freedoms. Actually we could gain any of them back if we lost some. If some one has the cash needed to file a suit and take it to the Supreme Court. But it is easier to fight from loosing a right, than fight to get it back. I love guns and shooting for what they are. (Fine tools and a great challenge) Not for any other reason.

I have already contacted Rudy twice since the match and expressed my concerns. How many others have? How many have contacted Doug, Bruce or Robbie asking them to give some support and contact the NRA? I asked the limits to be 2 lbs for an Open gun and 3 lbs for a Metallic gun. I decided to set a limit every one could live with. a two pound trigger is reasonable for an Open gun. The Open gun has only one purpose and can serve only as a match gun. Sure some folks are going to say well my gun has a 12 oz trigger and I never had an AD. Well that's fine and dandy but the AD is coming for that shooter. Sure a Liability Waiver can and should indemnify the NRA of accidents. The gunsmith making the trigger pull so light is going to be more liable than the NRA but a lawyer would go for the deepest pockets. Having waivers signed would prevent a judgement, but legal costs would still be incured if an accident happened.

Sorry for the rant. I had to be tactfull this time so I could save the moderator a lot of time 

So I urge every one to write the Board and push for a reasonable trigger pull limit and the use of Liability Waivers.

Dirty Steve, Out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Steve,

Good logical reply. I'm afraid you are correct on this.

However, the 2lb trigger will never happen. The NRA will likely go with 2.5, 3.5 or possibly 4 lb limits. I would like to see no limit placed, but it is going to happen.

Two and half is in line with the CF and RF for NRA bullseye. Three and half is .45 unless it is the Distinguished match which is 4 lbs. Don't be surprised if they have a 4 lb for Production to parallel the "ball gun" as used in bullseye. I hope that we get no greater than 2.5lb as a minimum mandate.

It may be revo time again. A 6-7 lb revolver is easier to shoot well than a 3.5lb semi-auto. Perhaps we will see a shift to the wheelgun. One thing is for sure, the shooters will conquer the problem, no matter what it is. That's what humans do.

MJ-OUT

[BigDave]

How many accidents have stemmed from triggers with pulls less than 3.5 pounds?

How many accidents have stemmed from de-activated grip safeties?

How long have we been doing this?

[Action Pistolero]

driver8m3,

The matches are held in Hinton, WV, Bluefield and Bedford, VA.

I had considered switching to a revolver to continue shooting NRA events. If this rule change goes through there will also be a minimum trigger pull for them as well. The standard practice is to check them in the single action mode and must lift a 2.5 pound weight. I don't know enough about revolvers to know how much this would increase the double action pull but unless the gun was converted to DAO I would think that it would be substantial.

The one thing to remember is that as long as the shooter handles the pistol the way it should be there will be no AD's. By that I mean, draw the pistol from the holster, aquire the grip, present the pistol to the target, insert trigger finger in the trigger guard, depress thumb safety and fire the shot. If these procedures are not followed to the letter than an AD is going to happen no matter what the trigger weight is. In other words, keep the booger finger off the boom switch until the pistol is on target.

[Allgoodhits]

driver8m3,

The matches are held in Hinton, WV, Bluefield and Bedford, VA.

... had considered switching to a revolver to continue shooting NRA events. If this rule change goes through there will also be a minimum trigger pull for them as well. The standard practice is to check them in the single action mode and must lift a 2.5 pound weight. I don't know enough about revolvers to know how much this would increase the double action pull but unless the gun was converted to DAO I would think that it would be substantial....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The NRA requires 2.5 lb SA trigger pull for the revolver in the Distinguished matches. Actually, the S&W revolver has a different "shelf" for SA than it does for DA. Therefore you can have a solid 2.5-3.5 lb SA and still have a good DA pull. Common main spring, but different engagement surfaces. For the S&W it is very difficult to get the DA pull below 6.5 -7.5 lb and have it fire reliably and "trigger return" reliably. A Python can get below 6lb DA pull and work reliably.

MJ

[BigDave]

Excuse me, but are there not rules[/i] that address unsafe gun handling?

Other than making some lawyer happy and pi$$ing off a lot of talented, willing and eager shooters, what will enacting a 3.5 lb trigger pull rule to to benefit Action Pistol?

[Allgoodhits]

Excuse me, but are there not rules[/i] that address unsafe gun handling?

Other than making some lawyer happy and pi$$ing off a lot of talented, willing and eager shooters, what will enacting a 3.5 lb trigger pull rule to to benefit Action Pistol?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, and there are also rules against speeding, reckless driving and the like, but we still have to wear seat belts! We will not win this battle. We may kick and scream and whine, but in the end we will have trigger pull minimums. The real question is: How will it be adminsistered, checked and enforced?

I don't want to shoot a 3.5 trigger, but IF I have to, then I damn sure want others to do it too. The NRA has proven we are not to be trusted. They take ammo at every event to be chronoed, and they have gone to centralized scoring. Most competitions the competitors score each others targets. Triggers will need to be weighed at every event too. The impact on scores shooting a 3.5 lb trigger will be far greater than someone shooting light loads!

Times are changing......now scores will be too!

MJ

[BigDave]

Yes, and there are also rules against speeding, reckless driving and the like, but we still have to wear seat belts!  We will not win this battle. We may kick and scream and whine, but in the end we will have trigger pull minimums.

Agreed. But, just because it is a rule; whether inacted by an individual or a group, with the consent of the majority or not, does not always make it the right thing to do. This is clearly one of those cases.

The rule book already says "serviceible and safe" regarding the guns. There is a rule against unsafe holsters. And, if you're worried about what the new kid brought to play with, there is a rule stating novice competitors are subject to an equipment inspection.

The NRA might be good at lobbying for gun rights, but there sure have a severe lack of apptitude in running Action Pistol as of late. My question is, when will it stop? First it was prone, which they can't seem to make thier mind up on. Next it was wings (which didn't pass, thankfully). Now it is trigger weights?

[SRT Driver]

The NRA is implying that a trigger pull less than their mandated requirement is unsafe. I have seen trigger pulls that are unsafe even at 5 lb. Many 'smiths fit triggers that are 1.5 lb and less that never have issues. If it works..it works. If not, it is unsafe. The weight does not matter. The common misconception is that light triggers are inherently unsafe which is complete crap.

Safeties. Your finger is the final safety. Unsafe gun handling is the problem.

The lawyers get spooked by the "my glock just went off" type lawsuits that never hold up.

Liability waivers are not worth the paper they are written on.

The beauty of AP when I first started was that there was a shooting problem and you could solve it any way you could. Now, since the "problem" has been essentially solved in Open class and close in Met sight, the difficulty level is being raised through non-shooting factors.

The misconception is that AP is too easy. Several Bullseye shooters have said that "you can use two hands, grab onto things and go prone to shoot that close...that's too easy..that's not 'prescision' shooting! In Bullseye, no one has ever shot a perfect score. In Action Pistol, you have to...must be too easy."

This is not a cut on BE shooters..I know several who have tried AP and do quite well but never has anyone said it was too easy after they tried it.

[AzShooter]

The NRA requires 2.5 lb SA trigger pull for the revolver in the Distinguished matches. Actually, the S&W revolver has a different "shelf" for SA than it does for DA. Therefore you can have a solid 2.5-3.5 lb SA and still have a good DA pull. Common main spring, but different engagement surfaces. For the S&W it is very difficult to get the DA pull below 6.5 -7.5 lb and have it fire reliably and "trigger return" reliably. A Python can get below 6lb DA pull and work reliably.

MJ

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Randy Lee from ApexTactical has been doing reliable triggers on Smith And Wesson Revolvers well below the 6.5 lbs you mention. My last trigger from Randy was 4.5 lbs on a 627 and it has been 100% reliable with over 5000 rounds fired through it so far. My backup gun will have a better trigger since I didn't screw with it first.

Rules always change but the winners will adapt and will continue to win.

[Leroy]

It was my first cup I had a great time and meet some wonderful people.

I want to thank evryone for all the hard work, and all the guys that helped me get there...( Alan--Keven!!)

But I don't want to see the new trigger pull rule.

So It is clear that the N R A will lose a lot of money from approved and registered matches now and to add to that.. If they kill action pistol, I will remember that when i get all the letters from the nra asking for doations, I wont be getting out my check book anymore..

Leroy

[Chuck D]

My last Cup (mid-90's) had over 200 shooters registered. The match has been in steady decline ever since.

We HAD a solid Action Pistol program at our local club for over 10 years. We held State and Regional championships along with a 6 to 8 club matches a year. Started out with 30+ shooters...ended up shutting the doors when we would draw less than 5.

The problem is 3 fold.

1. You CAN'T compete with USPSA. It would make tons more sense to enter into some form of agreement to market and promote both sports together but unless it's Camp Perry...the NRA isn't interested.

2. NRA's complete lack of a marketing effort. Judging by the absolutely lousy job they do in covering their own match in Shooting Sports USA, how would you expect to draw any shooters let alone new shooters?

3. Constant rules changes. For heaven sakes...leave the rules alone. Pinned grip safeties...3.5 lbs trigger pull rulings....prone or not prone... When they were drawing 300 + , the rules were simple.

Whether people want to believe it or not...the only way to save Action Pistol is to buy the rights and run it like they used to.

It would make a great investment for USPSA wouldn't it???

[Action Pistolero]

Dave,

Unfortunately, the prone rule will stay as it is. The reason that they back tracked is because I insisted. Doug and I were able to convince them to leave the Barricade alone.

Here's something to think about. What if we can shoot down this trigger pull rule but they come back and tell us that if it doesn't pass NRA will drop Action Pistol? What do we do then? I know what I would say but what do you all want to do?

Somebody make a poll (I tried that once but couldn't make it work) with the above questions and I'll take the results with me. Get every Action shooter that you know to take the poll.

Kevin

[Jay Della Bella]

Kevin

Do you think the nra wants this match anyway? Rudy doesn't do a thing for this match advertisement wise. Those posters we got in our bags should have been sent to every range affiliated with the nra.

I'm sure we could get somebody else to pick up this match I think the guy from the us shooting academy was interested.

as for the trigger pull, I might get a hernia pulling a 3.5 pound trigger

Jay (aka skirt)

[Action Pistolero]

Jay,

They say that they want to keep the match but then it seems as though they want to get rid of us. I've always been told that actions speak louder than words. You decide.

As far as I know every match director that puts on an approved Action match got a poster. I don't know about any of the other disciplines. I get the impression that the heads of the disciplines don't talk to each other.

Tom Fee was talking a good game. Let's see if he puts on a match sometime soon.

Kevin

[BigDave]

Kevin - I put the poll up. Let me know if you want it changed if it isn't to your liking.