Tactical Reload In Classifier

[Acrobat]

Hopefully this is a simple question with a simple answer.

Stage 3 of the classifier calls for Tactical Reloads. Page 41 of the new rulebook says in bold print that, "Tactical Reloads and Reloads with Retention are interchangeable."

Does this mean a shooter can substitute a Reload with Retention for a Tactical Reload when shooting the classifier?

[Duane Thomas]

Yes. Typically shooters will do a tac-load on String 1 of Stage 3 as they're transitioning from one side of the barricade to another, and a Reload With Retention on String 2, the theory being that allows them to stow the mag on the way to the barrel instead of waiting behind the barricade until the reload is totally completed as with a tac-load. Hope that helped.

[TxD]

Yes. Typically shooters will do a tac-load on String 1 of Stage 3 as they're transitioning from one side of the barricade to another, and a Reload With Retention on String 2, the theory being that allows them to stow the mag on the way to the barrel instead of waiting behind the barricade until the reload is totally completed as with a tac-load. Hope that helped.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or maybe the other way around.

[Merlin Orr]

Yes. Typically shooters will do a tac-load on String 1 of Stage 3 as they're transitioning from one side of the barricade to another, and a Reload With Retention on String 2, the theory being that allows them to stow the mag on the way to the barrel instead of waiting behind the barricade until the reload is totally completed as with a tac-load. Hope that helped.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or maybe the other way around.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

TxD I am interested in hearing your line of reasoning behind this?? What kind of advantage will be gained by reversing the mag changes as suggested by DT?

[JD45]

The tac-load or retention load should no longer be in the classifier because the new book now advises that they be performed off the clock.

Anyway, it is faster to do a tac-load when you leave the barricade and run to the barrel on stage three; as soon as you seat the magazine you can take-off. If you remain in one place, the retention load is faster for most shooters.

[Acrobat]

Ok, traditional thinking has always been consistent with what TxD says and I just assumed that Duane meant what TxD said.

But the “book” (page 80) describes the differences between a Tac-Load and a Reload with Retention. Page 68 specifies that Stage three is a “Tactical Load” (now another Bill Wilson way to describe a reload and not one listed in the appendix..).

JD45 – you are correct in pointing out the irony of Bill Wilson saying that COF’s should be designed so Tac-Loads or Reloads with Retention are done off the clock (page 50 ) while at the same time he requires them to be done ON the clock during the classifier.

I guess it’s best to assume that the two are totally interchangeable in ALL instances (as specified on page 41), including the classifier.

This should prove for some “interesting” discussions at our local club when a COF will call specifically call for a Tac-Load penalizing anyone doing a RWR.

[Scooter]

It used to be that if the COF specifies a tac-reload, you HAD to perform a tac-reload. If the COF specifies a reload with retention, you can do either. That was with the old rules.

New rules say they are interchangable. End of not so interesting discussion.

[Clay1]

I no longer practice a true tactical reload. I only do three types of reloads what IDPA calls a speed reload in the book or an USPSA reload in which rounds are dropped on the ground, an emergency reload or slide lock reload and a RWR. Those are going to get you through what you need to get through and quit fumbling with the mags.

[Duane Thomas]

JD45 – you are correct in pointing out the irony of Bill Wilson saying that COF’s should be designed so Tac-Loads or Reloads with Retention are done off the clock (page 50 ) while at the same time he requires them to be done ON the clock during the classifier.

I don't see the irony. The Rule Book is talking about the rules for stages - which aren't the classifier. In a standards exercise, i.e. the classifier, you can require people to do anything, including a specific number of shots, a specific type of reload, etc.

[Duane Thomas]

I only do three types of reloads what IDPA calls a speed reload in the book or an USPSA reload in which rounds are dropped on the ground, an emergency reload or slide lock reload and a RWR. Those are going to get you through what you need to get through and quit fumbling with the mags.

Okay, let's just make it clear that the USPSA/speedload is only legal in USPSA/IPSC, not IDPA.

[Clay1]

This is the whole section from the new rules:

"Appendix TWO - Approved IDPA Reloads

Failure to do an IDPA approved reload will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty per infraction. Failure to do the reload specified by the CoF will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty or an FTDR. Failure to properly stow a partial magazine or live ammunition after a Tactical Reload or Reload with Retention prior to firing the first shot after the reload, will incur a procedural penalty. Tactical Reloads and Reloads with Retention are interchangeable. See glossary for further details. When no specific type of reload is specified, any approved reload may be done at the shooter’s discretion.

Malfunction Clearing Exception: When clearing a malfunction, the magazine or speedloader that may have caused the malfunction does not need to be retained by the shooter and will incur no penalty.

Approved IDPA reloads:

Tactical Reload

Tactical Reload (Tac-Load) is recharging the gun during a lull in the action by:

A. Drawing a spare magazine prior to the ejection of the partial magazine from the gun.

B. Dropping the partial magazine from the gun.

C. Inserting the spare magazine into the gun.

D. Stowing the partial magazine properly (See “proper magazine retention” in the glossary).

NOTE: Should the CoF call for a Tac-Load and the magazine is empty while a round remains in the chamber, the empty magazine must be retained.

NOTE: HQ urges course designers to draft scenario courses that do not require tac-loads or reloads with retention to be performed “on the clock”.

Reload with Retention (RWR)

Reload with Retention (RWR) is recharging the gun during a lull in the action by:

A. Dropping the partial magazine from the gun.

B. Stowing the partial magazine properly (See “proper magazine retention” in the glossary).

C. Drawing a spare magazine.

D. Inserting the spare magazine into the gun.

NOTE: Should the CoF call for a Reload with Retention and the magazine is empty while a round remains in the chamber, the empty magazine must be retained.

NOTE: HQ urges course designers to draft scenario courses that do not require tac-loads or reloads with retention to be performed “on the clock”.

Slide-Lock (Emergency) Reload

Slide-Lock (Emergency) Reload is recharging the gun when it is completely empty by:

A. Dropping the empty magazine.

B. Drawing a spare magazine.

C. Inserting the spare magazine into the gun.

D. Racking the slide or hitting the slide release button.

NOTE: The slide does not lock back on some guns. In that case, the shooter will have to rack the slide. This is not grounds for a procedural penalty.

NOTE: Reloads may only begin when the shooter is fully behind cover and will be deemed completed when the fresh magazine is seated and the slide is fully forward or the cylinder is closed. (See Appendix THREE – Cover)

Intentional “round dumping” to gain a competitive advantage will result in a twenty (20) second FTDR penalty. A good example is firing extra rounds from a position in the open so you will be at slide lock and thus reload on the way to cover. Courses should be designed with specific reload points behind cover in mind. Once behind cover, a competitor may move behind cover while reloading. If a competitor shoots to slide lock with targets still remaining to be engaged from a specific firing point, the competitor does NOT have to duck behind cover while reloading, if you are using cover adequately while firing it will also be adequate cover while reloading. Keeping an eye on your threat zone while reloading is a sound tactic in the real world.

For IDPA purposes, contestants may replace the magazine in their pistol with a fully loaded one while the pistol remains in the holster as long as they are facing down range and the range is clear. It is highly recommended that contestants become comfortable with performing either a Tactical Reload or a Reload with Retention between strings of fire as they re-charge their pistols."

Then in Appendix 11 under Glossary it states: "Reload: A method of recharging the gun. There are three (3) types of reloads allowed in IDPA. See “Reload, Slide Lock”, “Reload, Tactical (Tac-Load)” and “Reload with Retention” for further details. A shooter is deemed loaded and may move from a position of cover ONLY when the fresh magazine is FULLY-SEATED and the slide is closed or revolver cylinder is closed.

Reload, Speed or Slide Down: Recharging the gun when there is a round in the chamber by:

Dropping the partial magazine on the ground.

Drawing a spare magazine.

Inserting the spare magazine into the gun.

Leaving the partial or empty magazine behind.

NOTE: There is NO provision for the speed reload in IDPA competition."

Yes, Duane no speed reload in IDPA. I shoot both sports and practice both. I guess that I should have said that I practice every reload except a tactical reload since it isn't required ANYWHERE any longer and is only an option.

Rick

[Duane Thomas]

Y'know, I already knew all that.

[Mark Perez]

Ok, traditional thinking has always been consistent with what TxD says and I just assumed that Duane meant what TxD said.

But the “book” (page 80) describes the differences between a Tac-Load and a Reload with Retention.  Page 68 specifies that Stage three is a “Tactical Load” (now another Bill Wilson way to describe a reload and not one listed in the appendix..).

JD45 – you are correct in pointing out the irony of Bill Wilson saying that COF’s should be designed so Tac-Loads or Reloads with Retention are done off the clock (page 50 ) while at the same time he requires them to be done ON the clock during the classifier.

I guess it’s best to assume that the two are totally interchangeable in ALL instances (as specified on page 41), including the classifier.

This should prove for some “interesting” discussions at our local club when a COF will call specifically call for a Tac-Load penalizing anyone doing a RWR.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Acrobat

You and I need to get together with CQ and DR and come to a consensus - I think that they should be interchangable regardless of what the course directions say.

Until that day,

Mark

p.s.

about time you found this forum

[Clay1]

Duane, I knew that you knew that but the comments were geared toward those that are going where the hell did this speed reload thing come from because it isn't listed under the reload section in the new rule book just the glossary.

I think some like to see what is actually written in the actual rule book instead of someone's take on what they think that it means. I like the cut and paste feature. I didn't like how long the last post was but wanted to post the complete section instead of what I thought was important. Sorry for the long one. Until next time.

Rick

[Ted Murphy]

The tac-load or retention load should no longer be in the classifier because the new book now advises that they be performed off the clock.

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From the rulebook

"NOTE: HQ urges course designers to draft scenario courses that do not require tac-loads or reloads with retention to be performed “on the clock”."

Classifier is a standards.

Ted

[Duane Thomas]

Yep.

[Mayonaise]

Yep.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree.

Maybe in 2009!

Mark

[dcloudy777]

But why would you classify shooters for competition based on a skill (on-clock "tactical" reloading), when that skill is discouraged from being used in the very competition for which the shooters are to be classified? It makes just as much sense to include a geograpy quiz or 1-mile run in the classifier.

DanO

[Ted Murphy]

But why would you classify shooters for competition based on a skill (on-clock "tactical" reloading), when that skill is discouraged from being used in the very competition for which the shooters are to be classified?  It makes just as much sense to include a geograpy quiz or 1-mile run in the classifier.

  DanO

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because standards require it AND they are not forbidden in scenario stages, just encouraged not to. Plus it's a skill the sport requires on or off the clock, so it may as well be tested in the classifier.

There is a difference between ONE on the clock tac load in a match and a match that has 2 per stage. And I've been to plenty of matches that had 10 mandatory tac loads in 6 stages.

Ted

[Duane Thomas]

And I've been to plenty of matches that had 10 mandatory tac loads in 6 stages.

WOW.

[Jane]

But why would you classify shooters for competition based on a skill (on-clock "tactical" reloading), when that skill is discouraged from being used in the very competition for which the shooters are to be classified?    DanO

In addition to what Ted said...

if they were to change the Classifier requirements, wouldn't they need to come up with some revised times to compensate so all previous classifications remain valid?

Jane - expert on nothing with opinions on everything