Powder charge question for going coated?

[IGOTGLOCKED]

Not sure if I had this is the right forum and thought I should put it here:

Was loading 9mm X-Treme plated 147 w/ 3.2 gr titegroup - shoots great!

As you know know I have completed my Plunk & Spin test and without test firing I'm happy with results which is 1.150 COAL. I now want to load my new 9mm Acme Hi-Tech coated 145 gr also with titegroup. Earlier advice was reduce what I was shooting by 10% which would be 2.88 gr. However Lymans 49th  for 147 gr lead shows start @ 2.5 gr titegroup, max is 2.8...

Could really use advice here. What happens if charge is too light?

Thx!

 

[hceuterpe]

Squib. But charge would have to be super low. More likely your slide wouldn't cycle and the case would stove top and jam.

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[IGOTGLOCKED]

6 minutes ago, hceuterpe said:

Squib. But charge would have to be super low. More likely your slide wouldn't cycle and the case would stove top and jam.

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Makes sense, so if it were you what would you start at..?

[hceuterpe]

Oops stove pipe[emoji44]

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[IGOTGLOCKED]

Just now, hceuterpe said:

Oops stove pipe

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Thanks but just starting, what does that mean..?

[hceuterpe]

Your case won't fully eject as the slide won't have enough energy to either fully cycle or cycle too slowly and will catch the case as it's ejecting and jam.

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[IGOTGLOCKED]

2 minutes ago, IGOTGLOCKED said:

Thanks but just starting, what does that mean..?

Understood, so if it were you where would you start?

[hceuterpe]

Can't say. I don't use that powder or that heavy of a bullet. Perhaps someone else can chime in. Otherwise load up a few at various charge weights beginning with starting charge and work up using a chrono.

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[IGOTGLOCKED]

2 minutes ago, hceuterpe said:

Can't say. I don't use that powder or that heavy of a bullet. Perhaps someone else can chime in. Otherwise load up a few at various charge weights beginning with starting charge and work up using a chrono.

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Understood, your input is much appreciated!

[js1130146]

Just start with the lead min charge weight and work up from there. Coated bullets are lead and should act like them for the most part. You might get a little more velocity vs a plain lead bullet but you should be safe within the lead recommended charge weights

Edited November 3, 2016 by js1130146

[Kraj]

My lee manual says with a 147 gn XTP bullet start at 3.2 gn tite group max is 3.6 gn. OAL 1.100

 

What i would do is back it off .2 or .3 and load up 10 and see where your at over a crono. Going from a 147 gn to a 147 gn seated at the same depth you arnt going to have to worry about the pressure being way up. Coated bullet generally need less powder to make powder factor anyways. If all your trying to do it make minor your probably under published load data in my experience. 

Ultimately you have to decide what your comfortable with but that is how I would do it.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Kraj

[js1130146]

4 minutes ago, Kraj said:

My lee manual says with a 147 gn XTP bullet start at 3.2 gn tite group max is 3.6 gn. OAL 1.100

 

What i would do is back it off .2 or .3 and load up 10 and see where your at over a crono. Going from a 147 gn to a 147 gn seated at the same depth you arnt going to have to worry about the pressure being way up. Coated bullet generally need less powder to make powder factor anyways. If all your trying to do it make minor your probably under published load data in my experience. 

Ultimately you have to decide what your comfortable with but that is how I would do it.

He's not using a jacked bullet though. He's switching to coated lead, so using the lead data makes more sense. It might take a few more rounds to work back up but it is the safer route.

[Kraj]

4 minutes ago, js1130146 said:

He's not using a jacked bullet though. He's switching to coated lead, so using the lead data makes more sense. It might take a few more rounds to work back up but it is the safer route.

While that is the technically correct way to do it. If you can push load a plated bullet with that charge you can load a coated bullet with that charge with oal and bullet weight being equal relatively safely. I dont think any of the loads i use for minor came out of a book, most are under. 


Hodgdons website only lists one load for titegroup with 147s 3.2 gn to 3.6 gn with a xtp bullet. Does that mean it isnt safe to use it for plated or lead?

He asked for advice I told him how I would do it.

[IGOTGLOCKED]

12 minutes ago, js1130146 said:

He's not using a jacked bullet though. He's switching to coated lead, so using the lead data makes more sense. It might take a few more rounds to work back up but it is the safer route.

 

24 minutes ago, Kraj said:

My lee manual says with a 147 gn XTP bullet start at 3.2 gn tite group max is 3.6 gn. OAL 1.100

 

What i would do is back it off .2 or .3 and load up 10 and see where your at over a crono. Going from a 147 gn to a 147 gn seated at the same depth you arnt going to have to worry about the pressure being way up. Coated bullet generally need less powder to make powder factor anyways. If all your trying to do it make minor your probably under published load data in my experience. 

Ultimately you have to decide what your comfortable with but that is how I would do it.

Don't know it would make a difference or not but just for clarification I'm going from a plated 147 to a coated 145 - both RN...

[Kraj]

6 minutes ago, IGOTGLOCKED said:

 

Don't know it would make a difference or not but just for clarification I'm going from a plated 147 to a coated 145 - both RN...

It would make a small difference, not enough to matter.

 

If they were the same shape the lighter bullet would take up less room in the case, reducing pressure for the same powder charge. The lighter bullet will also move faster with the same powder charge. But 2 grains isn't that different.

[9x45]

2 grains is huge, but .2 grains is not so much, do you have a chrono? You won't squib at 147 with 2.5 grains of TiteGroup. Look at the Hodgdon website. By the way, Dillon powder measures throw at least +/- .1 grains with sugar powders, and +/- .3 with cornflake powders. 

Edited November 3, 2016 by 9x45

[Dr Mitch]

Use the same charge as with the 147 Xtreme

[js1130146]

27 minutes ago, 9x45 said:

2 grains is huge, but .2 grains is not so much, do you have a chrono? You won't squib at 147 with 2.5 grains of TiteGroup. Look at the Hodgdon website. By the way, Dillon powder measures throw at least +/- .1 grains with sugar powders, and +/- .3 with cornflake powders. 

With a book charge weight range of .3 or .4 between min and max loads I'd say .2 grains is a significant jump.

44 minutes ago, Kraj said:

While that is the technically correct way to do it. If you can push load a plated bullet with that charge you can load a coated bullet with that charge with oal and bullet weight being equal relatively safely. I dont think any of the loads i use for minor came out of a book, most are under. 


Hodgdons website only lists one load for titegroup with 147s 3.2 gn to 3.6 gn with a xtp bullet. Does that mean it isnt safe to use it for plated or lead?

He asked for advice I told him how I would do it.

I'd take that to mean they don't have a min/max load for it for those bullet types. Whether or not that means they don't recommend those types with this powder or that they just haven't gotten around to testing them? Who's to know.

 

Regardless, I didn't mean to rustle any jimmies or anything. OP was asking about book loads so I gave the book standard answer. I doubt he'll be at risk with ANY of the methods or loads listed. But switching from plated to coated can cause a large difference in pressures with a fast powder like TG.

Edited November 3, 2016 by js1130146

[9x45]

I've shot TiteGroup since it first came out, at $78 per 8 lbs.  And have loaded over 250,000 rounds with that powder, and have chrono'd 125s, 147s, and 160s. .2 grains out of a G17 is about 30 fps, if it is actually .2 grains over. Like I said, most powder measures throw TiteGroup at no less than +/- .1 grains, sometimes .2 grains at the outside. Unless you have actually weighed each load, and each bullet, using the same case head stamp, have you? What loader are you using? And do you have a chrono? You can't measure pressure, you can only look for indications of over pressure.

Edited November 3, 2016 by 9x45

[IGOTGLOCKED]

Although most won't give load data, from what I have read the manufactures of coated bullets say to use regular lead bullet load data and that is what I quoted from Lymans 49th. It's pretty cool putting together enough info to build a new round and can be somewhat unsettling as well...

I made enough for one magazine @ 1.150 COAL & 2.5 gr titegroup. I will go test fire these tomorrow at lunch and report back. Thanks for all the help! 

[IGOTGLOCKED]

9 minutes ago, 9x45 said:

I've shot TiteGroup since it first came out, at $78 per 8 lbs.  And have loaded over 250,000 rounds with that powder, and have chrono'd 125s, 147s, and 160s. .2 grains out of a G17 is about 30 fps, if it is actually .2 grains over. Like I said, most powder measures throw TiteGroup at no less than +/- .1 grains, sometimes .2 grains at the outside. Unless you have actually weighed each load, and each bullet, using the same case head stamp, have you? What loader are you using? And do you have a chrono? You can't measure pressure, you can only look for indications of over pressure.

Unless you have actually weighed each load, and each bullet, using the same case head stamp, have you?

No

What loader are you using?

650

And do you have a chrono?

No

you can only look for indications of over pressure

What signs am I looking for?

Thank you 9x45!

 

 

[Sandbagger123]

31 minutes ago, Dr Mitch said:

Use the same charge as with the 147 Xtreme

this. also get or borrow a chrono. without one you are only guessing on velocity.  

[js1130146]

16 minutes ago, 9x45 said:

I've shot TiteGroup since it first came out, at $78 per 8 lbs.  And have loaded over 250,000 rounds with that powder, and have chrono'd 125s, 147s, and 160s. .2 grains out of a G17 is about 30 fps, if it is actually .2 grains over. Like I said, most powder measures throw TiteGroup at no less than +/- .1 grains, sometimes .2 grains at the outside. Unless you have actually weighed each load, and each bullet, using the same case head stamp, have you? What loader are you using? And do you have a chrono? You can't measure pressure, you can only look for indications of over pressure.

^^^Listen to this guy^^^

If that 250,000 round figure is legit (and I suspect it is), he's far more experienced with TG than I probably will ever be so I'll just shut my mouth.

[MemphisMechanic]

When I've switched from FMJ to coated I've seen a velocity jump of somewhere around 3-5 power factor with a variety of powders. So... not much at all.

You definitely wouldn't blow the gun up. Probably wouldn't really feel it when shooting.

Personally, I would peel 0.1 - 0.2 off the charge weight and go chronograph them. As 9x45 said, we're looking at a 30-50fps range that you're concerned about, which isn't much. And Titegroup is a powder I'm a bit more comfortable experimenting with in 9mm than something like clays. It's an excellent powder for the novice action pistol shooter. Soft, but still forgiving.

Edited November 3, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[IGOTGLOCKED]

18 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

When I've switched from FMJ to coated I've seen a velocity jump of somewhere around 3-5 power factor with a variety of powders. So... not much at all.

You definitely wouldn't blow the gun up. Probably wouldn't really feel it when shooting.

Personally, I would peel 0.1 - 0.2 off the charge weight and go chronograph them. As 9x45 said, we're looking at a 30-50fps range that you're concerned about, which isn't much. And Titegroup is a powder I'm a bit more comfortable experimenting with in 9mm than something like clays. It's an excellent powder for the novice action pistol shooter. Soft, but still forgiving.

Personally, I would peel 0.1 - 0.2 off the charge weigh

Meaning off the charge weight I was using with plated?