PCC SWEEPING

[Jmob50]

I agree that slings have no purpose in USPSA but think about for a second. Sweeping is an action and the rifle being slung is not being handled. Like your pistol. If a shooter can drop his pistol and it sweeps the entire squad while waiting to shoot and not be DQ'd then why on earth would you even consider DQ'ing someone because their legally stowed PCC can sweep you if you get too close??

[Jmob50]

6 minutes ago, teros135 said:

Just read the rules, follow the rules.  Sweeping is a safety issue and a DQ.  Swinging the rifle around, even on a sling, and sweeping people is a DQ.  

 

I would agree with that. However that's not what happened according to the OP

[Jmob50]

10 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

I'm just going by the rules for the division as written. I don't understand the confusion or the reason for your personal attack. Take care. 

That was in response to the "troll" comment. It's an open discussion that sounds as though it's been misinterpreted. I don't see any other well versed MD's or NROI ruling that a slung rifle is sweeping other shooters without being manipulated to do so

[Patrick Scott]

3 minutes ago, Jmob50 said:

That was in response to the "troll" comment. It's an open discussion that sounds as though it's been misinterpreted. I don't see any other well versed MD's or NROI ruling that a slung rifle is sweeping other shooters without being manipulated to do so

Copy that. I just feel that PCC 10.5.2.1 clearly states that any sweeping done by a PCC at anytime is DQable.

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted.

Im glad this division is still provisional allowing the powers to be to change rules on the fly as issue like this very one come up. I almost agree with the whole flagged is inert thing, almost.  

 

 

 

[Jmob50]

The rule is speaking to the action of sweeping, the unslinging and slinging just as they speak of holstering a pistol. While you carry your pistol in your holster do you not sweep yourself and others if they stand close to you? This is what we're talking about. The guy standing there with his PCC slung behind him and the person next to him is saying that the gun is sweeping him because it's not 100% vertical and is at an angle that it can sweep anyone closer than 5 ft. If he were unslinging or slinging then I'd agree with you as that is the rule, and a good one! 

[jrswanson1]

So if my holster has the FBI cant, and my empty pistol is in said holster, and someone walks up behind me and is "swept", am I DQ'd?

[Patrick Scott]

As I said before. Im not sure I agree with the rule as its written. I just feel as written the rule states DQ for any sweeping at anytime. I tend to feel that if the gun is hanging from a sling, flagged, then as you are stating it should be considered like a holstered handgun. Inadvertent sweeping while holstered is not avoidable and should not be punished.  The original post asked

"i interpret that to mean any time a PCC muzzle sweeps somebody ITS A DQ Correct"  

I understand he was talking about people were being swept while the guns were slung.

I just dont see how that rule is written it leaves any room for slung sweeping to be OK. 

 

[Patrick Scott]

2 minutes ago, jrswanson1 said:

So if my holster has the FBI cant, and my empty pistol is in said holster, and someone walks up behind me and is "swept", am I DQ'd?

No, the rules OK that for handguns

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for
sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while draw-
ing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competi-
tor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This
exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not
apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1
and 5.2.7

[jrswanson1]

1 minute ago, Patrick Scott said:

No, the rules OK that for handguns

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for
sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while draw-
ing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competi-
tor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This
exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not
apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1
and 5.2.7

So if we're treating a slung rifle like a holstered pistol, how is someone "sweeping" others if the PCC is slung?

[Patrick Scott]

Nowhere in the rules does is state a flagged slung PCC is the same as a holstered pistol. The PCC Best Practices document(which does not count as rules) does address this a little. It states:

"A flagged carbine is treated the same as a holstered pistol, with the exception of sweeping rules."

[OPENB]

I will say I do see jmob50's reasoning, but if we eliminate slings, it solves the problem. 

[Jmob50]

22 hours ago, Sarge said:

As the rules permit. They were more or less reasonably vertical muzzle down pointing about 5 feet away from them. Just enough to sweep everybody who went anywhere near them.

This is the OP and his statement of what happened.

We're smarter than this! The "exception of sweeping rules" is speaking to the chamber flag and the unslinging or slinging of the PCC. Simply saying that even though the PCC has a chamber flag, if you sweep yourself or anyone else while unslinging or slinging. I can't understand how anyone could make an argument otherwise. 

The real issue is PCC is not being accepted by some members and they're doing whatever possible to cause grief. With it being clarified what the real situation is and still saying this is a DQ, I have to assume that you just have a problem with PCC in general. 

[Jmob50]

While we're doing this, how would you interpret 5.2.1.3 and 5.2.1.4 in relation to muzzle orientation and "sweeping"?

[teros135]

Yes, we do.  It's PCCers who come charging into USPSA as if they own the place, try to get the rules changed to suit themselves, and insult the existing members in the process.  You're losing support in the process.

[Jmob50]

I don't think anyone's asking for anything special or to be changed. Just a lot of crying over nothing. If we get rid of the ability to use slings then case closed. Well sort of, then we'll have to address the guns being transported in carts "sweeping" people too.... If only we had a piece of kydex covering the trigger that magically made it safe....

[Jmob50]

sorry double post.

Also for the most part, the guys shooting PCC have been existing members like the rest of us

Edited October 5, 2016 by Jmob50

[Patrick Scott]

The rule is clear that you get nicked for unsafe gun handling under rule 10.5 if you case or uncase while not pointed at a side berm or backstop and for sweeping. 

"PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted."

Its clear that the Best Practices doc are not rules:

"USPSA has introduced a new, provisional division called Pistol Caliber Carbine, which will allow a carbine chambered in standard pistol calibers to be shot in USPSA handgun matches. (Appendix D8) To help clubs adapt to the new division (which is optional, as are all USPSA divisions), we’ve created this document to provide some general guidance. These suggestions are NOT rules, they are here to help clubs adapt to the new division if desired. "

 

19 minutes ago, Jmob50 said:

While we're doing this, how would you interpret 5.2.1.3 and 5.2.1.4 in relation to muzzle orientation and "sweeping"?

I would say those rules were put in to reduce the likely hood of sweeping, since sweeping is DQable  

 

I honestly dont have a problem with PCC. Its becoming my favorite division to shoot.  I see your reasoning, but even good reasoning doest not trump what is in black in white. Im just saying the way the rule is worded, sweeping in the OPs situation is a DQ, never said I agreed with that, but that is what is in the rule book and the rule book is what we follow. 

 

[Sarge]

42 minutes ago, Jmob50 said:

This is the OP and his statement of what happened.

We're smarter than this! The "exception of sweeping rules" is speaking to the chamber flag and the unslinging or slinging of the PCC. Simply saying that even though the PCC has a chamber flag, if you sweep yourself or anyone else while unslinging or slinging. I can't understand how anyone could make an argument otherwise. 

The real issue is PCC is not being accepted by some members and they're doing whatever possible to cause grief. With it being clarified what the real situation is and still saying this is a DQ, I have to assume that you just have a problem with PCC in general. 

Guess what pal? You are dead wrong on this and other counts. I bought a PCC to play the game so I'm not against it at all.

 The rules as written do not support your interpretation of sweeping. The rules clearly forbid sweeping at virtually any time the gun is out of a case, even when flagged.

 I agree with teros. And I'll go a little further and say you are being kind of a 3 gun DH. PCC are foreign to the pistol side of USPSA and so far the guys I'm seeing shooting it are about 50% 3G/ tactical timmies. And there was definitely the attitude present this past weekend that they thought they were the only shooters in the match. Truth be told, there uzi wouldn't run for crap and they were so sloooowww...especially when done shooting. 

 So yeah, you're wrong and you're not helping your cause.

 You say "we" wrote the rules. Pardon my ignorance, are you a board member? I don't recognize your name.

[Jmob50]

That's just it, what you have interpreted is NOT in the rule book and I don't know how to make it any clearer. What you are discussing is sweeping, which is an action. The rules discuss sweeping, just as it does for pistols. Once the pistol is holstered it is theoretically sweeping your leg, your foot, other people's legs and feet that may be close to you but it's not considered the action of sweeping, correct?

A slung rifle is treated the same as a holstered pistol as the guidelines state. While the rifle is slung it's only supported by the sling and nothing else and in accordance with the rules. 

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. 

How can you interpret this to mean that a slung rifle sweeping someone's feet or legs while being slung is DQ'able???

Doesn't the rule speak to the uncasing/casing or unslinging/slinging said rifle and in doing so failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or backstop OR sweeping someone in that process EVEN if you are pointing at the side berm or backstop?

If anyone has a hard time thinking how this came about, think of the stage being reset, towards the backstop OR a bystander, by the side berm and the PCC shooter uncases, unslings, and sweeps one of those people. Thats what we're discussing here in the rule. Not a slung rifle sweeping yourself or anyone else, if that were the case you wouldn't be able to walk with the slung rifle as your feet are swept on each step. Man, if you still think the shooter was sweeping in accordance to our rules then I can't help you but you're going to not only be embarrassed when you're overruled but also ruin a shooters day over what you thought was a rule.

[Jmob50]

By the way, a rifle in a cart 100% within the rules in USPSA and 3GN, "sweeps" just as much as a slung rifle would

[Racinready300ex]

35 minutes ago, Jmob50 said:

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. 

How can you interpret this to mean that a slung rifle sweeping someone's feet or legs while being slung is DQ'able???

Doesn't the rule speak to the uncasing/casing or unslinging/slinging said rifle and in doing so failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or backstop OR sweeping someone in that process EVEN if you are pointing at the side berm or backstop?

 

You added that part. I read that as two thoughts. (Failing to point muzzle at berm) OR   (sweeping any person).

You shouldn't get in the habit of sweeping people. IMO

[Patrick Scott]

Racinready300ex's interpretation of that is how I read it. 

[Jmob50]

6 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

You added that part. I read that as two thoughts. (Failing to point muzzle at berm) OR   (sweeping any person).

You shouldn't get in the habit of sweeping people. IMO

I didn't ADD anything, I'm trying my best to spell out what the rule means. If it were two thoughts it would be 10.5.2.2. And now we are in the habit of sweeping people? I give up, do what you want. Common sense and a little reading comprehension goes a long way

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, Jmob50 said:

That's just it, what you have interpreted is NOT in the rule book and I don't know how to make it any clearer. What you are discussing is sweeping, which is an action. The rules discuss sweeping, just as it does for pistols. Once the pistol is holstered it is theoretically sweeping your leg, your foot, other people's legs and feet that may be close to you but it's not considered the action of sweeping, correct?

A slung rifle is treated the same as a holstered pistol as the guidelines state. While the rifle is slung it's only supported by the sling and nothing else and in accordance with the rules. 

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. 

How can you interpret this to mean that a slung rifle sweeping someone's feet or legs while being slung is DQ'able???

Doesn't the rule speak to the uncasing/casing or unslinging/slinging said rifle and in doing so failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or backstop OR sweeping someone in that process EVEN if you are pointing at the side berm or backstop?

If anyone has a hard time thinking how this came about, think of the stage being reset, towards the backstop OR a bystander, by the side berm and the PCC shooter uncases, unslings, and sweeps one of those people. Thats what we're discussing here in the rule. Not a slung rifle sweeping yourself or anyone else, if that were the case you wouldn't be able to walk with the slung rifle as your feet are swept on each step. Man, if you still think the shooter was sweeping in accordance to our rules then I can't help you but you're going to not only be embarrassed when you're overruled but also ruin a shooters day over what you thought was a rule.

The best practices memo covers slung rifles. Specifically the part you like repeating that a slung rifle is the same as a holstered pistol. Except that it clearly states WITH THE EXCEPTION OF SWEEPING RULES.

 I'm not a bitch who gets my feelings hurt by being over ruled. But I do get irritated by snobs who can't see that a rule is in need of fixing when it is poorly written.

 I KNOW a slung rifle with a flag can't hurt me. But if you pick it up and point it at somebody that's still unsafe and I would DQ you into next week.

 There needs to be clarification of the rules. Plain and simple.

And again, this ain't 3 gun. I give less than a damn what those guys do. I do care about how safe our pistol matches are

[Sarge]

Actually the more I think about it slinging probably needs to be eliminated from the rules for USPSA PISTOL.