Best Die Setup For 9mm

[bufit323]

Currently I am set up using all Dillon dies in my press, my gun eats the ammo just fine, but I am not satisfied with the consistancy of the overall length as well as the consistency in velocities, even with my best loads.

What is the best die setup to have for this caliber in a 4 station press. I have been considering the following specifically:

Lee Undersize at station 1

Dillon Powder and Bell at station 2

Redding competition seating at station 3

Lee Carbide Factory Taper Crimp at station 4

Is this the best by far, or only marginally better than my all Dillon line up?

Thanks for your help in advance

Edited May 12, 2005 by Flexmoney

[stingerjg]

That is the exact set up that i use in my 550B on both 40 S&W and 38 Super Comp. After using that set up ill never go back to plain dillon dies.

[Carlos]

How much of a variance in OAL & velocity are you getting? Your current set-up sounds optimal to me.

How is the 50 yard accuracy? Which gun?

[bufit323]

How much of a variance in OAL & velocity are you getting? Your current set-up sounds optimal to me.

How is the 50 yard accuracy? Which gun?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Carlos, my current setup is just dillon factory dies, the setup that I listed is what I am considering, just for clarification, trying to find out if changing to that would be worth the investment.

My OAL varies +/- 0.007 so if I am trying to load 1.155, I can end up all the way to 1.162 or 1.148, this no doubt is what influences my velocities. As far as 50 yard accuracy, I am working in limited spaces and confines at the moment, so I don't have that for you at the moment, but at 25 yards from a sandbag I shoot approximately 4 inch groups. I must admit that I would like to confirm that with a Ransom though, I am not that confident with my sandbag technique

I am fairly sure that my pistol brand new Sig-226ST(done up by Bruce Gray) is capable of better groups than that, hence my interest in loading different ammos to find the most accurate load for my gun, with a decent Minor PF, with total reliablity, and manageable slide velocity. Not too much to ask right?

Thanks for the help, as you can tell, I am short on experience over here!

[.40AET]

My OAL varies +/- 0.007 so if I am trying to load 1.155, I can end up all the way to 1.162 or 1.148, this no doubt is what influences my velocities.

Between the OAL changing, the powder measure, and mixed brass, your velocities will vary.

Have you tightened up the sheelplate? The wobble in the shellplate will change the OAL. Next try running a batch with all of the same cases. Your ES should tighten up some.

[DougCarden]

Couple of things......

First off, make sure you are only removing the bell from the case with the crimp. makes a big difference at 50yds, and since you are using an undersized die you wont have any problem with setback.

Second of all, get 500 bullets in 115jhp, 124(5) jhp, and 147jhp, along with some .356 bullets, I like Zeros myself 121jhp and 125jhp. Get some W231, Wst, and Titegroup. WAP(Silhouette) works well too. Work up loads starting at 130PF and go up from there. It will remove a variable if you use the same brass as well. I have a "match" barrel that wont shoot 115jhps with W231, yet my stock XD will one hole them at 25yds. If the .355 bullets wont shoot at 25yds, they wont shoot at 50........Then try the .356 bullets. They wont hurt your bore, and may engage your rifling better and tighten up the groups.

Lastly, but most important. Reread BEs information about shooting groups in his book. Took me awhile but I learned to shoot groups after rereading it many times...

Good luck,

DougC

[bufit323]

I am beginning to think that my first post was misleading

Here is my question, should I spend extra cash to upgrade my dies to the set listed above, or should I continue to use my dillon dies? Is there a good return on the investment or will the better dies make aonly a little difference?

As far as my group shooting goes, I will reread that section and then bring the dang book to the reange and reread it before I sandbag up, maybe that will help me

[R112mercer]

The other guys have a pretty good fix on what you need. My own personal experience is on a Dillon XL650 with all Dillon dies. I had OAL variation with mixed brass. Once I went to the same headstamp brass I had no problems. I run Zero's 147 gr. JHP over 4.0 gr. of W231 at 1.145 OAL. This is the limit on OAL, any longer and the rounds won't fit in most mags. This load one-holes at 25 yards in my PPC9. Good luck.

[R112mercer]

Stick with the Dillon stuff. I have no experience with the other set-up but with Dillon's stuff I've been able to get spectacular accuracy so long as I have a good gun and I pay attention to ye olde sight alignment, trigger control. I really couldn't see a significant improvement (how can you get better than one hole?).

[bufit323]

The other guys have a pretty good fix on what you need.  My own personal experience is on a Dillon XL650 with all Dillon dies.  I had OAL variation with mixed brass.  Once I went to the same headstamp brass I had no problems.  I run Zero's 147 gr. JHP over 4.0 gr. of W231 at 1.145 OAL.  This is the limit on OAL, any longer and the rounds won't fit in most mags.  This load one-holes at 25 yards in my PPC9.  Good luck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now that interests me, I do have mixed brass generally, so if that effected your OAL it could seemeingly effect mine. Why would different cases have that effect, it seems to me logically that if the shape of the bullet is consistent, and the seating die is stationary, the base hloding the bullet will rise to the same point, the bullet should be seated the same no matter what case is used.

Could someone correct my logic.

[n2299]

I don't think you need the Lee U-size die for loading minor 9mm loads. The Dillon one should work fine. FWIW I use one with my .40 setup because I get some Glock brass once in a while. So I need it to chamber them in my SV.

[LPatterson]

Except for the Redding seating die your projected setup matches mine. If you go with the EGW die be sure and use One Shot on the brass first as the taper in the 9MM makes it hard to feel the powder stem going into the case.

[Spiff]

The other guys have a pretty good fix on what you need.  My own personal experience is on a Dillon XL650 with all Dillon dies.  I had OAL variation with mixed brass.  Once I went to the same headstamp brass I had no problems.  I run Zero's 147 gr. JHP over 4.0 gr. of W231 at 1.145 OAL.  This is the limit on OAL, any longer and the rounds won't fit in most mags.  This load one-holes at 25 yards in my PPC9.  Good luck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now that interests me, I do have mixed brass generally, so if that effected your OAL it could seemeingly effect mine. Why would different cases have that effect, it seems to me logically that if the shape of the bullet is consistent, and the seating die is stationary, the base hloding the bullet will rise to the same point, the bullet should be seated the same no matter what case is used.

Could someone correct my logic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm interested in this to. I've heard people say that before and I also do not think it's logical. Why would using mixed brass cause variances in OAL? So what if one manufacturer has thicker/thinner sides or a thicker/thinner web or base? All that’s going to happen is that the bullet will be inserted shallower or deeper to get a particular OAL (in the case of variances in web design). Shallower or deeper in relation to the case capacity.

Now, variances in bullet seating depth might cause variances in velocities, standard deviations, etc. Which might cause larger or smaller groups. But the OAL is going to be a product of how far the seating die is adjusted and how accurate the press is (for any number of reasons, for instance, my 650 has noticeable play in the toolhead when it’s inserted into the frame).

I do not see how OAL is going to be affected by mixed brass.

[Flexmoney]

If you don't set you dies up with components in each station of the press...while...you adjust the dies, then you will most likely get a larger variation in OAL. Just setting the press up with one piece of brass in the one station you are adjusting will allow the sheel plate to teeter-tooter.

Basically, you aren't setting the press up to the OAL you think you are.

Different brass will give a different OAL for a similar reason. The different brass (not the bullet) will hit the crimp die and the powder die differently, giving making a difference to the stroke...and, it will teeter-tooter the shell plate differently.

(IMO)

[Flexmoney]

Lee Carbide Factory Taper Crimp at station 4

Just to be clear. Lee makes (at least) two different dies. One is a standard Taper Crimp Die, the other is the Factory Crimp Die (the FCD has the add feature of a carbide ring that will perform the additional function of re-sizing the loaded round).

[bufit323]

Lee Carbide Factory Taper Crimp at station 4

Just to be clear. Lee makes (at least) two different dies. One is a standard Taper Crimp Die, the other is the Factory Crimp Die (the FCD has the add feature of a carbide ring that will perform the additional function of re-sizing the loaded round).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks flex, I need the knowledge (on both of those issues!).

[revchuck]

I use the standard Lee taper crimp die for 9x19 - no problems in thousands of rounds through my CZ-75B and Beretta Brigadier. Both have stock barrels, and neither are known for their match chambers.

[bufit323]

The other guys have a pretty good fix on what you need.  My own personal experience is on a Dillon XL650 with all Dillon dies.  I had OAL variation with mixed brass.  Once I went to the same headstamp brass I had no problems.  I run Zero's 147 gr. JHP over 4.0 gr. of W231 at 1.145 OAL.  This is the limit on OAL, any longer and the rounds won't fit in most mags.  This load one-holes at 25 yards in my PPC9.  Good luck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now that interests me, I do have mixed brass generally, so if that effected your OAL it could seemeingly effect mine. Why would different cases have that effect, it seems to me logically that if the shape of the bullet is consistent, and the seating die is stationary, the base hloding the bullet will rise to the same point, the bullet should be seated the same no matter what case is used.

Could someone correct my logic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm interested in this to. I've heard people say that before and I also do not think it's logical. Why would using mixed brass cause variances in OAL? So what if one manufacturer has thicker/thinner sides or a thicker/thinner web or base? All that’s going to happen is that the bullet will be inserted shallower or deeper to get a particular OAL (in the case of variances in web design). Shallower or deeper in relation to the case capacity.

Now, variances in bullet seating depth might cause variances in velocities, standard deviations, etc. Which might cause larger or smaller groups. But the OAL is going to be a product of how far the seating die is adjusted and how accurate the press is (for any number of reasons, for instance, my 650 has noticeable play in the toolhead when it’s inserted into the frame).

I do not see how OAL is going to be affected by mixed brass.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Check out this thread:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...topic=23952&hl=

This seems to followin the logic that I was thinking, as far as tolerances for overall length being a function of cases,

[warpspeed]

Dillon dies in 1, 2, & 4.

Redding Competition Setaing Die in 3.

No problems.

[Carlos]

Re-read the 1st post; thanks for the clarification. I meant to say "proposed set up sounds optimal."

Lee Undersized or U Die in 9mm: why use it? I use the U die because of the powder I shoot: V V N-310 & 147 grn bullets & mixed brass. This combination is NOT approved by Vihta Vouri or by any published source of 9x19mm data. In addition, this combination is predicted to generate +p+ pressures even loaded to the max OAL. I use the Lee die as a safety precaution to prevent the possibility of setback. If you are useing a listed or book load to 125-130 PF, this precaution might not be necessary.

Accuracy: in 147grn 9mm bullets, I have noticed that only the hollow point varieties will group better than your current standard: "at 25 yards from a sandbag I shoot approximately 4 inch groups. . .I am fairly sure that my pistol brand new Sig-226ST(done up by Bruce Gray) is capable of better groups than that, hence my interest in loading different ammos to find the most accurate load for my gun, with a decent Minor PF, with total reliablity, and manageable slide velocity."

As for slide velocity, heavier bullet generally means reduced slide velocity, given similar power factor (do a search on "momentum" for a lengthy & specific discussion of the bullet weight/slide velocity relationship).

As for OAL variance, I agree, your current variance is abnormal. I get less variance with a regular RCBS seater - particularly with the correct seater stem installed. Friends with the Redding report excellent results - no doubt its a quality die that works. Only die I've had difficulty with is the Lee seater die; OAL varied quite a bit.

Regards,

D.C. Johnson

[bufit323]

Re-read the 1st post; thanks for the clarification.  I meant to say "proposed set up sounds optimal."

Lee Undersized or U Die in 9mm: why use it?  I use the U die because of the powder I shoot: V V N-310 & 147 grn bullets & mixed brass. This combination is NOT approved by Vihta Vouri or by any published source of 9x19mm data. In addition, this combination is predicted to generate +p+ pressures even loaded to the max OAL. I use the Lee die as a safety precaution to prevent the possibility of setback. If you are useing a listed or book load to 125-130 PF, this precaution might not be necessary.

Accuracy: in 147grn 9mm bullets,  I have noticed that only the hollow point varieties will group better than your current standard: "at 25 yards from a sandbag I shoot approximately 4 inch groups. . .I am fairly sure that my pistol brand new Sig-226ST(done up by Bruce Gray) is capable of better groups than that, hence my interest in loading different ammos to find the most accurate load for my gun, with a decent Minor PF, with total reliablity, and manageable slide velocity."

As for slide velocity, heavier bullet generally means reduced slide velocity, given similar power factor (do a search on "momentum" for a lengthy & specific discussion of the bullet weight/slide velocity relationship).

As for OAL variance, I agree, your current variance is abnormal. I get less variance with a regular RCBS seater - particularly with the correct seater stem installed. Friends with the Redding report excellent results - no doubt its a quality die that works. Only die I've had difficulty with is the Lee seater die; OAL varied quite a bit.

Regards,

D.C. Johnson

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for all the help Carlos (et al), we are on a very similar page it sounds like. I use a similar 9mm load, 147 cast, though I went to 320 rather than 310 just to avoid pushing the evelope a GREAT deal.

I am going to experiment improving OAL by setting the die with a case in each station of the press. That is one of the fine points that I have missed, but it makes perfect sense. If I am still off from what I am going for, I will drop the cash on the Redding Dies, as far as the U and the Lee factory crimp, their cost is pretty light, so I will likely grab those whenever I get a chance.

Thanks so much for the input. And as far as moment, versus energy, versus PF, I am fairly familiar with the physics of it all. My background is pretty science intensive. That is where my experience is OK, it is all this other stuff that makes me feel like a dunce.

[grayguns]

I suspect your +/- .007 COAL variation is due to variations in the tension exerted upon the ram by each set of cases as they move through their respective positions. Dillon 550B presses have some wiggle in the ram assembly that hurts nothing if each case is identical to the next, but which can manifest itself in such COAL variations when mixed brass is used and / or if the dies aren't set up optimally.

Try this test: seat a bullet in a pre-sized and belled case of known brand and length individually, by itself, and run it through the crimp die at station 4 and measure it. Then compare this COAL to another similar case which was loaded normally with unsized brass at station 1 and so forth. I suspect you'll find the second round will measure longer than the first due to increased tension on the ram as each station works a case.

There are ways to deal with this affect. (I don't sort my brass at all in 9X19, other than for condition.)

One that isn't usually recommended for carbide dies and progressivbe presses is to set up one of your dies to contact the shell plate at TDC and thus act as a positive stop. This alone will usually tighten up your COAL's significantly. I do this myself.

Besides ceating nicely concentric rounds that will probably fit in the neatly polished chamber I did for you, one of the other advantages of the Lee factory Crimp Die that Flexmoney and I both recommend is that it adds more tension to the ram and thus yields more consistent COAL's. By the way, I think this die is great and I've used them forever. That and their collet rifle crimp dies are the only really good, quality products Lee makes in my opinion. I'm sending you the reloading book I wrote for Oregon Trail that covers all this stuff about setup of the Dillon press among other things. BTW, your P226ST should group N320 / 147 JHP into about 2" or so. Mine and Roger Sherman's both do that, while the same PF / 147 with N310 goes into about 3" @ 25 meters. Thanks! -Bruce

[grayguns]

P.S.

I'd lose the undersize sizer unless you need to cram extra rounds into hicaps, it serves no clear purpose and can introducing variables related to different material elasticity and internal capacity of differnet case brands, and previous condition / rounds fired / from what.

In my expereince I get higher SD's from new brass, and even higher variation from mixed brass that's been run through a Case Pro or other small-base sizing process. As part of our research for Oregon Trail, we once took some .40 cases fired from a Glock 22, which have chambers that support the case as well as a firecracker in a trash can. We loaded them with various powders after neck sizing only, standard sizing, small base sizing, and after being run through the Case Pro. Some were sorted by brand, and others were deliberately mixed to reflect two of each brand in each 10-round test lot.

We then chrono'd the whole mess through this Glock 22 and compared results. In every powder class, we got the biggest extreme spreads from the smallest-resized cases, though these variations were considerably greater in the mixed-brand lots, and when faster powders were used. The most consistent velocities among mixed brands were with the standard-resized lots.

In my experience, small variations in COAL one way or the other have less effect on velocity than powder charge, crimp, bullet pull, primer ignition or this sizing issue. -Bruce