Nik Habicht Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 On 10/18/2016 at 9:17 PM, Sarge said: As I said , it certainly can be worked out. But why does it need worked out? Because opinions differ. Chances are it can be worked out one way at one major, and a different way at another major I'm ok with that -- call made differently at different matches, or at different stages -- as long as it's made consistently for every competitor at the match/stage in question..... Both feet out on a 20 foot target is different than both feet out on a fifty yard target (assuming 2-3 feet closer to the target in each case.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 11 hours ago, andrewtac said: It is not lowest common denominator at all, it is making it black and white. While I agree with your thoughts (some situations warrant less or more penalties) I am only suggesting the change to remove the various interpretations and make it black and white. A group consensus can be made, but there is always one who disagrees. It is much easier to quote rules verbatim to offenders than try to explain what they really meant, in my opinion. OK -- but I'm not sure that justifying a rule change with "it would sure be easier on the ROs" is a winning argument. If a competitor disagrees with a call, reach out to the RM. The RM has the time to explain it.... :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 10 hours ago, Nik Habicht said: I'm ok with that -- call made differently at different matches, or at different stages -- In that case this conversation will still be going on 10 years from now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 12 hours ago, Nik Habicht said: Both feet out on a 20 foot target is different than both feet out on a fifty yard target (assuming 2-3 feet closer to the target in each case.) no it isn't. both feet out is a per-shot procedural no matter what, even if it's not any advantage at all. even if you ran further away from the targets and it took longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 6 minutes ago, motosapiens said: no it isn't. both feet out is a per-shot procedural no matter what, even if it's not any advantage at all. even if you ran further away from the targets and it took longer. If you start outside, the per-shot procedural does not kick in yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 2 minutes ago, gng4life said: If you start outside, the per-shot procedural does not kick in yet... correct, many people even RM's don't understand the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 1 hour ago, gng4life said: If you start outside, the per-shot procedural does not kick in yet... Perhaps the *mandatory* penalty doesn't kick in, but If there is a stage where the start position is several feet in front of the shooting area, and targets are at 50 yards or 20 yards, and the shooter stays several feet in front of the shooting area to engage them, I'm probably going to lean towards a per-shot procedural, and possibly a kick in the nuts as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots while faulting, providing doing so does not violate (2.2.1.5 or 3.2.6) Shots fired after completely (both feet out and touching the ground) leaving a shooting area will be penalized one penalty per shot until the competitor establishes a presence in a new shooting area with at least one foot on the ground inside the shooting area. I understand that the section in blue does not kick in if you are starting outside, but the sections in red still apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Correct, just merely stating that it is not mandatory in that situation and I've had to rule on that in matches. And I agree with the kick to the nuts as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 10 hours ago, motosapiens said: no it isn't. both feet out is a per-shot procedural no matter what, even if it's not any advantage at all. even if you ran further away from the targets and it took longer. Of course you're right -- there was a rule change; but also wrong -- if you're stating that there's no difference in advantage.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 12 hours ago, Nik Habicht said: Of course you're right -- there was a rule change; but also wrong -- if you're stating that there's no difference in advantage.... they are both significant, and since we work on a binary system of either no significant advantage, or some signicant advantage, there is no difference in advantage..... at least from a math standpoint. and english teacher might argue the shades of grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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