Trigger bar lifter spring

[brian45acp]

CGW has a note to call them on how to tweak that spring but I havent seen any of you guys talking about this. I was ordering some spare parts and figured that was a good spring to have but I have yet to tear into my gun that far. Its the one screw I havent messed with yet but I have the stake tool and read about finding the sweet spot in terms of tightness as to not twist the spring out of alignment. I havent read anything about tweaking the spring though.

Are you guys tuning the spring in some way I dont know about?

[biglou13]

per conversation with dave/cgw.  some times the tail the curled ends sticks out/twisted.... just bend back into alignment... if necessary. (i have yet to remove that spring)  also make sure spring rides and stays in groove.

Edited August 28, 2016 by biglou13

[brian45acp]

Probably need to add some lateral tension to it. If it were not to ride in the grooves of the trigger bar I bet spreading the legs out would cause it to put tension toward the sides of the frame. I think that is what he means

[bowenbuilt]

From my understanding for the best action and reset:

Slide off, grip panels off.

Right side spring when unclipped from the groove on the trigger bar should be 1/8" above the bottom of the bar.

Left side should have just enough tension on it to keep it in the groove.

Adjust both side so that you actually have to unclip them out of the grooves, no tension inward or outward.

All of mine are adjusted this way and it does improve the action and the reset.

[brian45acp]

good info.

Why would one side be tensioned more then the other though?

 

What method do you do for bending the spring?

Edited August 28, 2016 by brian45acp

[bowenbuilt]

I didn't ask any questions, Just did as I was told. It worked. I use my fingers through the empty grip hole and pull, push or bend until I get what I want. The spring is easily maneuvered.

Edited August 28, 2016 by bowenbuilt

[brian45acp]

You just pulled up on the spring once it was in the gun until it rode 1/8th above the bar? Or did you have to keep taking it out and tweaking it until it was right?

 

Sounds like you got to it from the grip panels and tensioned it while it was installed

Edited August 28, 2016 by brian45acp

[bowenbuilt]

Don't take the spring out unless it is too far inward, a mistake you want to avoid, I do it all with the spring in the gun and the screw secured just as it will be when the slide goes back on.

[Tok36]

1 hour ago, brian45acp said:

good info.

Why would one side be tensioned more then the other though?

 

What method do you do for bending the spring?

The FPB lifter is on the right side of the sear cage. The trigger bar picks up the FPB leg before it picks up the sear leg. I assume that this has something to do with it. As bowenbuit said, all fine adjustment is done with the Mag Catch Spring Screw installed (the staked one). Keep an eye on the trigger bar spring as you tighten down the screw to insure that the TBS dose not go cockeyed during the final turns. Unless i am polishing the inside of the frame or swapping a mag catch i do not remove the Trigger Bar Spring generally.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Tok36

[bthoefer]

38 minutes ago, Tok36 said:

The FPB lifter is on the right side of the sear cage. The trigger bar picks up the FPB leg before it picks up the sear leg. I assume that this has something to do with it. As bowenbuit said, all fine adjustment is done with the Mag Catch Spring Screw installed (the staked one). Keep an eye on the trigger bar spring as you tighten down the screw to insure that the TBS dose not go cockeyed during the final turns. Unless i am polishing the inside of the frame or swapping a mag catch i do not remove the Trigger Bar Spring generally.

If the spring is not adjusted correctly it can cause a false reset. This happens when the trigger bar picks up the sear before it picks up the firing pin block. When this happens the hammer will fall, but the firing pin is still blocked by the firing pin block. This causes the firing pin and block to slam against each other and can damage both parts.

[brian45acp]

Man this sounds involved. You guys are doing this with this slide on? I would imagine so since the slide presses the trigger bar down some so I would think adjustments are made from that point and not with the slide off since the bar lifts up on its own.

 

You guys are just pushing on the spring upward until you tension it just right then clipping it back into the groove?

Its odd I never seen this talked about or and vids on it. Sure seems more involved then anything else and important.

[bthoefer]

2 hours ago, brian45acp said:

Man this sounds involved. You guys are doing this with this slide on? I would imagine so since the slide presses the trigger bar down some so I would think adjustments are made from that point and not with the slide off since the bar lifts up on its own.

 

You guys are just pushing on the spring upward until you tension it just right then clipping it back into the groove?

Its odd I never seen this talked about or and vids on it. Sure seems more involved then anything else and important.

Slide off.

Grips off. You need to be able to see through the frame under the grips so you can see the spring position under the trigger bar. 

 

Take a tool (I use a pick) to push the spring out of the grooves towards the center of the mag well.  Bend it up or down from there to adjust the vertical tension.  Bend it in or out so that when you push them back under the trigger bar they center in the grooves in the trigger bar. 

 

This is important on a gun with a firing pin block but less important on a shadow. 

[brian45acp]

Thanks man.

There must be enough room inside there to bend it in/out? I would think it would have to be out or if you bend it outward the frame will limit how far you can go. Vertical doesnt seem like that big of an issue and simple enough

All mine have FPB so I will check my match gun this week for this. I havent had any issues but I am little by little learning how to tear into this thing. This screw and spring is the last part I have to tackle. Well, I guess taking the sear cage apart also but that doesnt look so bad.

Edited August 29, 2016 by brian45acp

[Tok36]

Picture for reference.

[IHAVEGAS]

23 hours ago, brian45acp said:

Man this sounds involved. You guys are doing this with this slide on? I would imagine so since the slide presses the trigger bar down some so I would think adjustments are made from that point and not with the slide off since the bar lifts up on its own.

 

You guys are just pushing on the spring upward until you tension it just right then clipping it back into the groove?

Its odd I never seen this talked about or and vids on it. Sure seems more involved then anything else and important.

Centering the spring arms in the grooves is easy and intuitive. Adjusting the height is easy, not intuitive perhaps, but CGW tells you what height is correct so no worries. 

I guess if you bent the spring arms too far inward and couldn't bend them back outward far enough without taking the lifter spring assembly out of the gun then that would be a pain for the first timer (not a deal after you have done it a few times though). 

[brian45acp]

So I checked my stock sp-01 which I havent taken that spring out on yet. I unhooked both sides of the spring and they are equally tensioned to ride just above the bottom of the trigger bar. Basically when unhooked both sides are above the bar but not by much and to put them back you pull them down and they snap back into the groove. This entire idea that this spring needs to be adjusted one way on one side and one way on the other I am not sure I believe. I would plan to change springs and put them just the way they came when the time comes which seems to be equal on both and provide just a little upward tension on both sides.

[bthoefer]

34 minutes ago, ARy said:

Not quite.

If the spring is misaligned or damaged, it will cause a intermittent or full time blow by of the double action. If the spring has enough to hold the trigger bar through sear release, it has enough for the FPB too. The spring is nothing but a tension or more of a support of the trigger bar through the DA pull. Once the gun is in SA, it's purely hammer/sear/disco. 

That is true with a shadow or other gun without a firing pin block. 

 

If the tension is not correct the trigger bar can pick up the sear before picking up the firing pin block. If you let the trigger bar continue forward it will pick up the firing pin block also so this only becomes an issue when shooting from reset or with a tightly fit disconnector that isn't letting the trigger bar come far enough forward to fully reset. 

 

It's not about having enough pressure to hold the trigger bar up while the trigger is pulled as you describe, it's about it resetting correctly. 

[bthoefer]

3 hours ago, ARy said:

Pop your spring arms out of the tracks;

1. Attempt pull in DA.

2. Cock hammer, pull trigger, rack slide, reset, and pull trigger again. 

3. Report back.

Nice try. 

You haven't addressed what I've said in either of your responses. 

 

You are hung up thinking about the end of the trigger pull. I'm talking about the point of reset. 

[bthoefer]

3 hours ago, ARy said:

Pop your spring arms out of the tracks;

1. Attempt pull in DA.

2. Cock hammer, pull trigger, rack slide, reset, and pull trigger again. 

3. Report back.

Nice try. 

You haven't addressed what I've said in either of your responses. 

 

You are hung up thinking about the end of the trigger pull. I'm talking about the point of reset. 

[bthoefer]

28 minutes ago, ARy said:

What I believe you said is that the trigger bar support spring dictates SA reset.  

The trigger bar support spring is to aid the trigger bar through the double action pull.  Once you pulled and gone into single action, the reset is dictated by the sear itself and the trigger return spring (edit: and disco, obviously, but I don't want to assume you know that either)... not the trigger bar support spring.  When you are in SA, the slide manually puts the hammer back, and the disco/trigger bar action dictates the drop.  

To say that the trigger bar support spring dictates reset is wrong. But I'm probably the last person to comment on SA reset in a firing pin blocked gun...

That might be what you heard, but that's not what I said. 

No point trying to correct you any more. Enjoy your guns that won't fire from reset. 

 

If you want to understand what I've explained try giving David at Cajun Gun Works a call and ask him about fixing a "false reset", which is what the adjustment the original poster asked about addresses.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2016 by bthoefer

[M1A4ME]

I guess I got lucky when I replaced that spring in my Pre B CZ 85.

I put the mag. release spring in place, put the trigger bar lifter spring in place and put the screw in that holds them in place.  I tightened the screw down till it pulled the right side leg out away from the frame and then slightly let up on the screw and the leg went back to almost touching the frame.

No issues at all.  Then again, I have not firing pin block to worry about.

I checked the spring legs under the trigger bar and they are sitting in the grooves.

[bthoefer]

1 hour ago, ARy said:

What I believe you said is that the trigger bar support spring dictates SA reset.  

The trigger bar support spring is to aid the trigger bar through the double action pull.  Once you pulled and gone into single action, the reset is dictated by the sear itself and the trigger return spring (edit: and disco, obviously, but I don't want to assume you know that either)... not the trigger bar support spring.  When you are in SA, the slide manually puts the hammer back, and the disco/trigger bar action dictates the drop.  

To say that the trigger bar support spring dictates reset is wrong. But I'm probably the last person to comment on SA reset in a firing pin blocked gun...

I'm going to try this one more time, mainly because I hate being accused of saying something I did not. 

The reset is dictated by the interface of the sear/trigger bar/and firing pin block. This determines how far forward the trigger has to move to reset.

The disconnector stops the forward movement of the trigger bar but does not determine where the trigger resets. The trigger return spring pulls the trigger bar forward while the trigger bar spring provides upward tension to move the trigger bar upwards once it has moved far enough forward to clear the foot of the sear and firing pin block lifter arm.

 

In a gun with a firing pin block; 

If the trigger bar spring is not adjusted properly and there is not enough tension on the right side of the trigger bar, then the left side of the trigger bar can move up and reset in front of the sear before the right side of the trigger bar has moved up enough to reengage the firing pin block lifter. 

This feels softer than the normal single action reset. If you pull the trigger from this position the hammer will fall but the firing pin is still blocked since the lifter was not engaged by the trigger bar. 

Increasing the tension on the right side of the trigger bar spring ensures that the firing pin block lifter and sear engage the trigger bar at the same time during reset. 

 

[bowenbuilt]

We need to stop here because this is the correct explanation of what will happen if the spring is not adjusted correctly. Too much trigger bar pressure will also hang up the trigger return and make the action feel rough and gritty feeling if you are trying to use one of the reduced power trigger return springs. Let's call it even here because this is exactly what happens when the TBS is not adjusted correctly. TRUCE!! And is exactly why I did not explain it earlier because it only starts a debate. All you need to know is how it adjusts correctly and go from there.