Zoom Zoom

[Scooter]

What is the best way to deal with shooting at both long range steel plates and close range paper targets on the same stage? I'm using a Simmons 1.5-5 like many of you. Question is, is it best to zoom in and out or leave it at an intermediate power?

[benny hill]

If you have a little movement, turn it up & down. If not I shoot it all on 1.5

[mhearn]

Scooter

We just had this at the Southeastern Tactical 3 Gun in Huntsvbille AL April 30, 2005. Six steel Flash targets spread out from 200 - 300 yards (10 inch plates) and 3 paper point blank. All nine targets had to be engaged from three different positions. Painful.

Benny we missed you. I would have loved to see you shoot the whole array on 1.5. I'm sure you could do it. Superman.

Tony Holmes won the stage. Maybe we can get him on here to tell us how he did it. Malcolm Davis was second. Mick Sterling third. Mick you out there? What did you do? I know Malcolm used a 4x score with a JP Short Range Tactical Sight so he wouldn't have to bother adjusting zoom. He looked smooth on the video canting that baby to the side to bring the irons into play on the close stuff.

We had something similar at the SMM3G in March 05 (Stage 7). I was cranking my 1.1-4 variable up and down as hard as I could go. It worked for me in Arizona. I finished 6th in tactical scoped on that stage. There was some movement (going from standing to kneeling), but you still had to pretty much engage the close and the long from the same place at the first and third positions. I took the time to adjust the zoom.

Benny, you were at that match. Did you shoot the first and third arrays with your zoom on 1.5?

MHearn

[wsimpso1]

Plates at 300 AND at point blank? Tough stage. I tried shooting plates at 200 with 1.5x and did not like it, but with practice, I bet that you could do it. I am jealous that you have a place where you can do plates at those distances. Our clubs that shoot tactical rifle all go 100 yards and less, and 1.5x works fine at those distances.

If you see that sort of thing very often, I would also think about the JP Short Range on your forend, then you can dial whatever magnification you want for distance and use the hoser sight for the shorties and while moving.

Some folks can shoot 5x with both eyes open on close targets, but I can not.

Benny's suggestion of adjusting during movement is something to practice too.

It sounds like experimentation is in order. So much to learn... Anybody else working on this?

Billski

[kurtm]

I just got done with a rifle match that had 4 flash targets, 1 LaRue, and two big plates scattered from 250-400yds ( big plates and LaRue @ 400 ) but no close targets. I shot the whole thing on 1X and ended up second on the stage to a TA-11. I usually shot .5 power less than Benny, unless he turns his "Turkey" scope up, then I usually shoot 4X less than he does.

[ArturoJ]

If I had shot SMM3G with my AR I would have used 1.5 all the way on stage 7, or any stage like it (point blank and long range from the same shooting position). Most of the time I would crank up and down YMMV. I shot Heavy Metal this time, what blast.

BTW, I went back and looked at the winning times on stage 7 of the SMM3G for each class. TS = 47.06, TI = 54.41, HM = 48.32. Looks like the top of the heap is close regardless of the tools they use. I think it has someting to do with knowing your zero all the way out.

[dadman]

BTW, I went back and looked at the winning times on stage 7 of the SMM3G for each class. TS = 47.06, TI = 54.41, HM = 48.32. Looks like the top of the heap is close regardless of the tools they use. I think it has someting to do with knowing your zero all the way out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I assume HM as with irons?

[mhearn]

BTW, I went back and looked at the winning times on stage 7 of the SMM3G for each class. TS = 47.06, TI = 54.41, HM = 48.32. Looks like the top of the heap is close regardless of the tools they use. I think it has someting to do with knowing your zero all the way out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I assume HM as with irons?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ArturoJ

Comparing the top shooters and drawing conclusions is pretty risky. Across all shooters comparing Tactical Scope (TS) to Tactical Iron (TI) at SMM3G 2005 on Stage 7, its not even close. The average time for TI is 149. The average time for TS is 114. In other words the average scope person shot the stage in 75% of the time of the average Iron person. At the top of the heap, you may be right that it has less to do with the sighting system and more to do with knowing your zero. But, for the average Joe or Sally, this information indicates that the sight system is a significant issue.

MHearn

[kellyn]

If I had been shooting TacScope at SMM3G, I would have run the scope at 2.5-3X on Stage 6 or 7. It would have taken too much time to turn the dial to adjust power. The scope should be adjusted for the majority of shooting (time wise not necessarily # of targets) which on Stages 6 and 7 was the farther steel - not the close paper.

[TonyH]

Hey Guys,

I shot the SE long range stage with a Leupold 1.5-5x & on 5x for everything. The close targets were bunched together enough that it wasn't a issue, & you could keep both eyes open for those targets.

Same for SSM stage 7, but you have to remember to finish shooting the close targets before you unload. lol....... as I did, then not drop your mag when you do try & finish. Went from real good, to a train wreck.

Stage 6 at SSM I moved from 1.5x to 5x after shooting the up close stuff, had plenty of time going up the ramp.

Tony

[Mickster]

MHearn

Oh yeah, that long range stage was a beautiful thing.

I was so happy that I got all 6 long range plates in 7 or 8 shots on 4x from inside the car that I bolted out of the car and didn't realize I never shot at the close targets until I was at the front bumper. Sprinted back to the car door and saw the handle to open the door had fallen off. Reached in and poked around inside, finally found the inside handle and yanked on it, swung the door open, jumped back in and shot the close IPSC targets on 4x. The rest of the stage went without further incident. Thankfullly.

And yes I do have that fancy JP iron sight on the forend. Too freaked out to remember I had it.

TonyH just tore that stage up. I've seen him do things like that before. It should be televised.

[mhearn]

Tony

96 secs. Smokin run and congrats on the match. Thanks for responding. I was curious how you ran that stage.

I shot the last array at 4x, but not by design. I was running out of time. Speaking of train wrecks.

Did anyone complete the stage within the 200 sec time limit who wasn't using magnification? I know a bunch who didn't. Just wondering if anyone did.

MHearn

[mhearn]

Mick

Congrats on 3rd overall and 4th on the long range.

So, you stayed on 4x the whole way.

By the way, I feel a special level of embarrassment when someone tells me they forgot an array, got locked out of the car, ran around like a crazy man and still kicked my ass.

Nicely done. Thanks for the info.

MHearn

[Paule]

Mick, Joe Harless shot with an EoThing, not irons, but no magnification. I think he was around 160 with no penalties.

I shot it clean with a TA11. No problems with the close targets, but the mud was slippery. Stage 8 was my best one though, 123 and change. Now, if I could just find those clay birds hiding in the barrels!

[mhearn]

Paul

Thanks for the note. I didn't see Joe until the prize table. He did have a fine run. 7th overall. 160 secs. Congrats. 60.08% of Tony. So, it could be done without magnification. Anyone else?

MHearn

[Paule]

I get to brag about my own shooting only on rare occasions, so I will clarify. On Stage-8 my personal time was 123 seconds, 2nd behind Tony. (far behind as he shot in 96 sec.) Helped me get up to 14-15th overall in the match, not too bad for me in my 4th 3-Gun match ever!

[mhearn]

Paul

Nice run. Glad you joined us.

How was your equipment set up?

How did you deal with the up close and the distance transitions?

MHearn

[Paule]

I shot a 17" lightweight upper with a TA11B mounted into the receiver. I shoot targets 50 yards and closer "over the top" using the red chevron reticle like an occluded sight. It takes a little practice but is very fast as there is no magnification to deal with. Also, I zero the apex of the chevron at 275 yards for everything else. I'm 3-4" high from 100-225 yds, and only 4" low at 350. with typical target sizes it's pretty much point and shoot until you get past 350 yds. Also, I don't have to worry about holding over on close shots. I'm dead on at 40 yards.

Transitions were no problem. The TA11 makes it easy. I did have a little trouble getting out of the Jeep, and my brace position inside the vehicle was not my best work. Long ways to go to catch Tony though!

[Jake Di Vita]

I am not a very experienced rifle shooter, but to me it seems as if a zoom wouldn't really matter that much. Even if your using a 10x....magnification doesn't make you hold the more stable or increase your proficiency at pulling the trigger without disturbing the sights.

Am I totally wrong here?

[Paule]

At typical 3-Gun ranges a 3-4x is plenty of magnification. More would be fine too, but not at the expense of field of view. Higher magnification usually costs too much FOV and transitions between targets are much more difficult. Also, while it's true that a steady hold is the same no matter what the magnification is, it certainly LOOKS different at 10x versus 1x. Easier to convince yourself to break a shot cleanly if the sight picture is stable. Even the best hold gets jumpy at higher magnification.

For me, magnification is a big advantage only for target location when steel is not easy to see. If the targets stand out it is easy to hit them with a 1x reflex sight (Aimpoint or Eotech, for example). When the targets are shot up and hard to see, a little magnification makes them faster to find.

[wsimpso1]

Jake,

You are wiser than your years... That was why Benny pointed us at just using 1.5x.

Scopes work well at making the target and sighting reference appear on the same visual plane, but most short range scopes set for 1.5x have a reticle that pretty well hides those eight inch plates at 300 yards.

8 inch plate at 300 yards is roughly 8/3 = 2 2/3 minutes, which is smaller than the 4 minute dot on many rifle dot sights and on the diamond reticle on my Simmons. Once that happens, how are we supposed to know where our hold is? Making the target bigger gives you a chance. Now that I am saying this, I am wondering if my Simmons enlarges the target and leaves the reticle looking the same so that this would work...

Anyway, all of our three gun is at 100 yards and less in Michigan, so this only matters when I go on the road.

Billski

[mhearn]

Match results from the S E Tactical stage that involved short range and long range targets from the same position. Looking at the top four finishers, (since they're the only ones who have checked-in or I've talked to directly), what did they do?

Match Results

1st Tony Holmes

I shot the SE long range stage with a Leupold 1.5-5x & on 5x for everything. The close targets were bunched together enough that it wasn't a issue, & you could keep both eyes open for those targets.

2nd Paul Estegaard

I shot it clean with a TA11 (3.5x). No problems with the close targets,

3rd Malcolm Davis 1-4x Simmons cranked up to the max (4x) and back up iron for the close.

4th Sterling, Mick

I was so happy that I got all 6 long range plates in 7 or 8 shots on 4x from inside the car that I bolted out of the car and didn't realize I never shot at the close targets until I was at the front bumper. Sprinted back to the car door and saw the handle to open the door had fallen off. Reached in and poked around inside, finally found the inside handle and yanked on it, swung the door open, jumped back in and shot the close IPSC targets on 4x. The rest of the stage went without further incident. Thankfullly.

I see a trend here.

The rest of the top ten, except for Joe, anybody know?

5th Ely, Tony ?

6th Browne, Robin (3x)

7th Harless, Joe EOTech (1x)

8th Porter, Rick ?

9th Medlock, Tim ?

10th Harp, Jerry (4x)

Harp, what did you do? You R.O. this stage all day. Any observations?

MHearn

Thanks Mick, I'll edit these in as they become available

[Mickster]

Robin Browne is still in the stone age when it comes to computers so I'll chime in.

Leupold CQT on 3x all the way.

[AH6IP]

Well, at the SE 3 Gun rifle stage, there was a myriad of scopes, mostly 1ish-4 power. All except for one shooter had their scope set to 3 or 4 power to start. The paper was so close just shooting over your scope worked. My observation after RO'ing the stage was this-guys, you got to know what your zero is and how it effects down range performance. Oh, and BTW-shooting up hill does NOT require much holdover with a 50/200 zero on a 300 yard target. After Jeff and I went down range to reset the big steel (shooting with a .50 BMG gun-another story!!), just observing the bullet tracks, 90% of the rounds were HIGH! Another observation-when doing a walk through, figure out what you can use for a rest/brace for you blaster. Those that used the door post and hood of the vehicles had much smoother runs than those using "other" means. FWIW-I used a 1-4 Horus Talon set at 4X. Didn't like the reticle at all, to busy and center dot way to big when you crank it up.

[mike.45]

Hi Jerry,

long time no speak. I didnt realise you RO'ed this or I would have bugged you before

How did the iron sighters go, especially heavy metal, and how did they fair on your stage - much comparison ?

Mike