Duane Thomas Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 My point, despite folks "assigning" me points in the previous few posts, is that there ALREADY IS an existing Division where oldtech is welcome, where folks without those 19 round $20 Glock magazines are welcome, where folks from Socialist Pseudo-American States (that don't recognize the Second Amendment) can play without fear of having to have the high-dollar gee-whiz gizmos to be competitive.It is called LIMITED 10, and is already here. Well, except for the fact that you need 10-round .45 mags to be competitive in Limited-10, and you don't in Singlestack. Except for the fact that doublestack guns are allowed in Limited-10 and outlawed in Singlestack. Except for the fact that cutdown race holsters and mag pouches on your belly are allowed in Limited-10 but you can shoot in Singlestack with real-world carry gear that has to be located in a concealable fashion. Except for the fact that an immense pool of hardcore 1911 .45 fans can shoot Singlestack, and be fully competitive, using only gear they already own with no need to buy more (match only) equipment. Yeah, except for all that, they're absolutely identical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 I can throw more at you if you want Hah! I remember sitting in my unit's day room at Fort Bragg watching Hill Street Blues on TV when Lt. Howard Hunter said, "And then there was time I filled out a DD 4473 and took my POV and went TDY across the DMZ in ROK." I looked at the guy sitting next to me and said, ".....Made perfect sense to me." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 but you can shoot in Singlestack with real-world carry gear that has to be located in a concealable fashion. Except for the fact that an immense pool of hardcore 1911 .45 fans can shoot Singlestack, and be fully competitive, using only gear they already own with no need to buy more (match only) equipment. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hah. Who carries in Kydex OWB's? Who carries 6 magazines? Daily? That isn't a mall-ninja? Sure you can play with "real-world carry gear" (another phrase I dislike about as much as "proper" and "serious practicioner" in shooting contexts), but the equipment race is alive and well for match gear, even at IDPA matches. Nothing against the division, but the same folks that scream about people feeling the need to have wide-bodies in L10 are still going to need the latest, greatest holster, belt and mag pounches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 Trying to get those CDP folks to come play with a 'special' Division pandering to their fears of inadequacy is, frankly, insulting. Well, time will tell. In three years we'll know how many serious singlestack 1911 shooters find being offered an entire division in which they can shoot their babies "insulting." Much sooner than that, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 Hah. Who carries in Kydex OWB's? Me. And a considerable number of the people I know who carry a gun every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 forgot.. "or is a gun writer.." Very few of the people I know that carry (and I know more than a few) carry OWB with any sort of regularity. Of course they may not be "serious shootists" since most don't carry "full-size fighting handguns", aka the single-stack 1911's in 45 ACP, but several have Master cards in one sport or another.. Anyway, the topic is drifting and I think my point was that whether or not "real-world carry gear" was competitive, the perception will be that it's not.. Sorta like L10 in that respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 I carry an STI Commander, myself (used to carry a Wilson CQB, but I grew up). I use the same gun in IDPA, oddly enough, although I have to download it by...eight...to be "legal" in that game. My favorite IWB is a Sparks SS/II, though, not Kydex Well, time will tell. In three years we'll know how many serious singlestack 1911 shooters find being offered an entire division in which they can shoot their babies "insulting." Much sooner than that, actually. Actually, using the publicly stated criteria, L10 and Revolver are not 'serious' either (using the numbers from the 2004 Nationals) A segregated Limited-10 subset for single stack 1911 (no bloody lightrails, no bloody bushingless barrels), because the most popular pistol design...ever...isn't competitive on it's own? Ummm...ok. Duane, luv ya man, but the "gear" straw man isn't...very full of straw, even. If you really want to play that, lets do what we have been talking about on this very forum for a while...make L10 play with Production holster and mag pouch rules. Amazing...now the CDP, ESP, and SSP folks don't feel all left out because they don't have a bling-bling holster and pimpy mag pouches. No need to set up yet another segregated little Division to protect a weapon design that can stand up on its own quite nicely already Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 Alex, I still have not figured out why the introduction of a new division offends you so much. At this point it is going to happen so stop trying to cut it down before it even has a chance. If in three years it is a complete failure then you can come back and say what a dumb idea it is. As for me, I shoot a production division almost exclusively. That is one of those crazy no-good divisions where I can use the same Kydex that I use for concealed carry. Yes I could shoot my Glock in L10 and yes I could get some high caps and shoot it in Limited and be competitive but I don’t. I started with a simple gun and simple gear and I kept with that because I enjoyed shooting it so much. I don’t feel the need to run out and buy a STI Open gun to protect my ego from finishing in the lower half on the combined results. In my opinion, Production division is one of the best things to happen to USPSA in the last ten years. Now back to the single stack topic: We have a factory gun match coming up in a few weeks where we will only have L10, Production and revolver. My friend is the best single stack shooter in the state and I told him it would be a dumb idea to shoot his SS 1911 over his double stack because even though he is amazing with a SS he shoots his double faster. The only incentive to shoot a true 1911 SS in L10 is that you don’t have anything else. This new division gives me the excuse I always wanted to buy a SS 1911 and run it at a USPSA match. It should be a really natural transition for me because of shooting the production game with the production gear. You don’t have to like it; you don’t have to shoot it. It won’t hurt you, I promise… Just let us have some fun with this new division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkelly Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 I think the 1911 division is a great idea. The 1911 division may not include all 1911 style guns, but it does give most SS 1911 shooters more of a level playing field. It was introduced some eight months in advance rather then shoved down our throats retroactively. It doesn't hurt shooters that were following an existing set of rules by costing them (perhaps) hundreds of dollars in equipment. It doesn't put guns into divisions they can't compete in (although it does leave some in those divisions). This time I'm with the industry "HOMERs", although for different reasons! Respectfully, jkelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 i hope the industry gets behind this and give plenty of support (and money), however it does negate the nead for l10 which came about only as a fix for the clinton ban that no longer is in effect. maybe at the endof the 3 year trial you should drop the division with the lowest head count. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Or the two divisions with the lowest count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 If it all works out, we'll have hundreds more shooters because of the new divisions, so we won't need to get rid of any, right? What do we do then? If all the divisions prosper do we keep all of them? Add more? I already dread awards ceremonies enough as it is, and with a full complement of shooters in every division, it's going to need a whole day to get through them all. "3rd C-open..." "2nd C-open..." "3rd B-1911..." "2nd B 1911" This is something that has to get addressed and soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 How about 1st through 3rd in each Division and not make me wait through classification pseudo awards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sestock Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 Thanks to Gary and the other BOD members that are looking at ways to grow this sport. A 1911 is by far the most popular handgun in the US, maybe not in raw numbers, but in dyed in the wool shooters, editors and writers, and manufacturing companies. I am a little dumbfounded that many of the people here are attacking this before it even happens. The rules have been established, Gary came here and asked for input and we gave it to him. These rules are given to us many months in advance and not shoved down our throats. Take a step back and a deep breath and let's see how this new division is accepted by the sponsors. We will see through mission count how this division takes off among our members. I will be dusting off a few 1911s to have fun with next year. If this is not a success then the USPSA members can through your Area Directors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 The following NEVER ceases to amaze me: 1. Run down the 1911 SS Division BEFORE it gets off the ground. 2. Even though we'll have a 3 year "provisional" period to see if the Division can support itself through participation numbers great enough to justify its implementation...people are already calling for the dealth of L10. 1911 SS Division doesn't even get off the ground until 01/2006 and some are ALREADY "chomping at the bit" to kill L10 and quite possibly Revolver Division. 3. No matter how you say it...some STILL don't get that the repeal of the AWB ISN'T NATIONWIDE !!! Just because you live in a State that allows Hi-Cap mags doesn't mean that we ALL do. L10 and the capacity restrictions in Production are based on these factors. Ask you BOD's ...they'll tell you this. 4. Awards, awards,awards....we may have to buy more awards...wah,wah,wah... Whatever happened to the policy of 1 award for every 5 participants in a Division? If you don't have adequate participation numbers...guess what...you get to KEEP the shooters entry fee and provide him/her with NO award !!! Shooters for the most part know and understand this. No other shooting sport on earth offers the members so much in the way of benefits and infrastructure and at the same time...so much to bitch and moan about (myself included). Can we SEE how this thing will work out before we axe other Divisions and collect bottles and cans on the side of the road to purchase additional awards??? It was WAY simpler when there was one Divison and awards were distributed by the Lewis class system..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 The following NEVER ceases to amaze me:2. Even though we'll have a 3 year "provisional" period to see if the Division can support itself through participation numbers great enough to justify its implementation...people are already calling for the dealth of L10. 1911 SS Division doesn't even get off the ground until 01/2006 and some are ALREADY "chomping at the bit" to kill L10 and quite possibly Revolver Division. 3. No matter how you say it...some STILL don't get that the repeal of the AWB ISN'T NATIONWIDE !!! Just because you live in a State that allows Hi-Cap mags doesn't mean that we ALL do. L10 and the capacity restrictions in Production are based on these factors. Ask you BOD's ...they'll tell you this. Yes...I find this very interesting also. In all the present and previous discussions regarding the creation of SSD, "kill L10 now" has come up time after time. While I've predicted that SSD will kill off L10 as a stand alone division if it (SSD) takes off.... L10 in some form (perhaps as a special catagory under Limited...since the two are so similar with the exception of magazine capacity) will have to persist as long as there are states with magazine capacity restrictions...and I don't see that changing anytime (if ever) soon! That brings up an interesting question (perhaps subject for a different topic) but back in the day when they were considering L10...why didn't they just make it a special catagory of Limited? Guns (in some cases) are the same, gear and placement is the same. I don't see the logic for the creating of a standalone division considering L10 and Limited are so closely aligned. If the intent was to make L10 a home for single stack 1911 guns...they should have made L10 single stack only...but they didn't....because the reason for L10 was in response to the AWB!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 Let's close this one and if there's still need to discuss the merits or lack thereof of keeping all the divisions, open some new threads.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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