Why so much COAL Varience..?

[IGOTGLOCKED]

I was cleaning and boxing 9mm loads over the past few evenings and noticed the COAL varied between 1.138 to 1.153. Is this normal? If not not might you suggest I look at to correct the varience?

Thx in advance from IGG!

[Sarge]

Do you lube? This will tighten things up a lot.

Do you pull the first few and the last few out of the mix before measuring? They will always be off a tad because the shell plate is partially empty.

Is the shell plate tight enough? If it wobbles much at all when you press down anywhere it's too loose.

Do you make nice consistent pulls in the handle EVERY TIME? If you don't oal will suffer. The worst thing you can do on a progressive is pull the handle, then pull a round out fiddle with it then put it back in the plate, then pull the handle again. Stutter stepping the press is a no no for consistent ammo.

Try this. Lube cases, start loading, pull out the first 2-3 rounds, then just pull the handle 25-30 times without stopping, then measure the rounds in the bin.

[ChemistShooter]

It's more variance than I get. I haven't examined every round (but will on the next run), but I check at the beginning and the end and get around +/- .003-4 inch variance. I haven't been keeping records.

Right at the moment I load the plate with blank cases at the beginning and the end. I keep a case with a fired primer as a placeholder in the powder die and just dump the powder back in the hopper.

A little bit of experimenting seems to indicate it is the sizing die that always has to have a case in it in order to get as uniform an OAL as possible.

Lubing will affect OAL? I actually have some One-Shot. Now I need to do some experimenting.

[Hi-Power Jack]

COAL varied between 1.138 to 1.153. Is this normal?

ARE YOU RELOADING LEAD BULLETS?

[dillon]

With round-nose bullets in 9mm, I have measured up to .026" variation in 100 projectiles of a well-known brand of FMJ. You don't say what equipment you are using.

[IGOTGLOCKED]

Do you lube? This will tighten things up a lot.

Do you pull the first few and the last few out of the mix before measuring? They will always be off a tad because the shell plate is partially empty.

Is the shell plate tight enough? If it wobbles much at all when you press down anywhere it's too loose.

Do you make nice consistent pulls in the handle EVERY TIME? If you don't oal will suffer. The worst thing you can do on a progressive is pull the handle, then pull a round out fiddle with it then put it back in the plate, then pull the handle again. Stutter stepping the press is a no no for consistent ammo.

Try this. Lube cases, start loading, pull out the first 2-3 rounds, then just pull the handle 25-30 times without stopping, then measure the rounds in the bin.

Thanks Top!

I do lube my cases.

I have not pulled the first and last few prior to measuring - I will try this.

I always take my time setting up to run a load and to be sure everything is "on". I do try to be consistent. I load at a speed comfortable for me, not tryiing to make record round counts. I would say I average 400, maybe 500 an hour. I don't have an auto case feeder. I have however extended the case feeding tube to hold 60 cases though. In fact I don't really even know how many I've loaded until I clean, case gage, and box them up... And I don't load if I am push for time.

I have been stoping to double check my powder measure drop and COAL from time to time during a loading session. So if I'm loading 400 or so I might check this twice during the process... I do load mixed cases too. I don't have access to the manual right now however I think it indicated up to .016 varience is ok, it just seems like a lot and that I should be able to obtain much closer variences.

[IGOTGLOCKED]

COAL varied between 1.138 to 1.153. Is this normal?

ARE YOU RELOADING LEAD BULLETS?

Negative, plated...

[IGOTGLOCKED]

With round-nose bullets in 9mm, I have measured up to .026" variation in 100 projectiles of a well-known brand of FMJ. You don't say what equipment you are using.

Thanks for checking in Dillon dude!

I have a 3 month old 650 all dillon dies set up for 9mm

Loading mixed cases

.356 dia147 gr X-Treme plated RN

3.2 gr Titegroup

CCI 500 primers

Coal was set @ 1.138 ish prior to my run

My belling is about .018 larger than my sized cases

Crimp is .376 - .379

And all my adjustments are done with a full plate prior to starting.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

Edited April 21, 2016 by IGOTGLOCKED

[IGOTGLOCKED]

It's more variance than I get. I haven't examined every round (but will on the next run), but I check at the beginning and the end and get around +/- .003-4 inch variance. I haven't been keeping records.

Right at the moment I load the plate with blank cases at the beginning and the end. I keep a case with a fired primer as a placeholder in the powder die and just dump the powder back in the hopper.

A little bit of experimenting seems to indicate it is the sizing die that always has to have a case in it in order to get as uniform an OAL as possible.

Lubing will affect OAL? I actually have some One-Shot. Now I need to do some experimenting.

I don't measure every round either. However after I have cleaned the finished rounds, case gaged, and box them all I spot check between 1/3 & 1/2 of each box. That has never been suggested it's just a habit that has evolved.

[IGOTGLOCKED]

With round-nose bullets in 9mm, I have measured up to .026" variation in 100 projectiles of a well-known brand of FMJ. You don't say what equipment you are using.

So, will flat nose or truncated produce more consistency?

[Hi-Power Jack]

How's the accuracy of those cartridges (1.138 - 1.153" long)?

[IGOTGLOCKED]

How's the accuracy of those cartridges (1.138 - 1.153" long)?

Not sure yet. Is longer COAL generally equated to less acuracy..?

[rustybayonet]

I'm running a 550 and get same col from first to last round. Ahhh the 550 is there anything it can't do? (Homer Simpson voice)

[ChemistShooter]

My cases are all the same, Blazer brass. I would guess mixed cases but am interested in what the experienced loaders say.

[Hi-Power Jack]

How's the accuracy of those cartridges (1.138 - 1.153" long)?

Not sure yet. Is longer COAL generally equated to less acuracy..?

No.

But, variable OAL's might make a difference.

Wonder about the velocity of the longer vs the shorter rounds?

[Sarge]

Do you lube? This will tighten things up a lot.

Do you pull the first few and the last few out of the mix before measuring? They will always be off a tad because the shell plate is partially empty.

Is the shell plate tight enough? If it wobbles much at all when you press down anywhere it's too loose.

Do you make nice consistent pulls in the handle EVERY TIME? If you don't oal will suffer. The worst thing you can do on a progressive is pull the handle, then pull a round out fiddle with it then put it back in the plate, then pull the handle again. Stutter stepping the press is a no no for consistent ammo.

Try this. Lube cases, start loading, pull out the first 2-3 rounds, then just pull the handle 25-30 times without stopping, then measure the rounds in the bin.

Thanks Top!

I do lube my cases.

I have not pulled the first and last few prior to measuring - I will try this.

I always take my time setting up to run a load and to be sure everything is "on". I do try to be consistent. I load at a speed comfortable for me, not tryiing to make record round counts. I would say I average 400, maybe 500 an hour. I don't have an auto case feeder. I have however extended the case feeding tube to hold 60 cases though. In fact I don't really even know how many I've loaded until I clean, case gage, and box them up... And I don't load if I am push for time.

I have been stoping to double check my powder measure drop and COAL from time to time during a loading session. So if I'm loading 400 or so I might check this twice during the process... I do load mixed cases too. I don't have access to the manual right now however I think it indicated up to .016 varience is ok, it just seems like a lot and that I should be able to obtain much closer variences.

OOH there it is. Mixed cases will really mess with oal. For some reason they load to different lengths from brand to brand.

And I think you asked about lube? Living takes away most of the resistance so pulling the handle is more fluid and consistent.

Your process sounds pretty solid. Just split out a small batch of same head stamp and see what you get

[IGOTGLOCKED]

How's the accuracy of those cartridges (1.138 - 1.153" long)?

Not sure yet. Is longer COAL generally equated to less acuracy..?

No.

But, variable OAL's might make a difference.

Wonder about the velocity of the longer vs the shorter rounds?

I'd have to speculate shorter rounds are faster and longer slower based upon shorter = more pressure...

[IGOTGLOCKED]

Do you lube? This will tighten things up a lot.

Do you pull the first few and the last few out of the mix before measuring? They will always be off a tad because the shell plate is partially empty.

Is the shell plate tight enough? If it wobbles much at all when you press down anywhere it's too loose.

Do you make nice consistent pulls in the handle EVERY TIME? If you don't oal will suffer. The worst thing you can do on a progressive is pull the handle, then pull a round out fiddle with it then put it back in the plate, then pull the handle again. Stutter stepping the press is a no no for consistent ammo.

Try this. Lube cases, start loading, pull out the first 2-3 rounds, then just pull the handle 25-30 times without stopping, then measure the rounds in the bin.

Thanks Top!

I do lube my cases.

I have not pulled the first and last few prior to measuring - I will try this.

I always take my time setting up to run a load and to be sure everything is "on". I do try to be consistent. I load at a speed comfortable for me, not tryiing to make record round counts. I would say I average 400, maybe 500 an hour. I don't have an auto case feeder. I have however extended the case feeding tube to hold 60 cases though. In fact I don't really even know how many I've loaded until I clean, case gage, and box them up... And I don't load if I am push for time.

I have been stopping to double check my powder measure drop and COAL from time to time during a loading session. So if I'm loading 400 or so I might check this twice during the process... I do load mixed cases too. I don't have access to the manual right now however I think it indicated up to .016 variance is ok, it just seems like a lot and that I should be able to obtain much closer variances.

OOH there it is. Mixed cases will really mess with oal. For some reason they load to different lengths from brand to brand.

And I think you asked about lube? Living takes away most of the resistance so pulling the handle is more fluid and consistent.

Your process sounds pretty solid. Just split out a small batch of same head stamp and see what you get

Great idea Top, I will and will report back - thx!

[Miranda]

loading a box and notices the OAL variation...

on one hand... Good! cranking out ammo.

one the other hand... you may want to be a little more sure of your process

before application of "The Crank!"

I am not certain of your press and adjustments vary with the press.

about the best I could do is my target OAL and a couple of thous either way.

as long as there was no trend toward shorter I didn't fuss it.

That much OAL is from loose things dies and shellplates and the nut on the handle.

from the other thread I read you may be over crimping...

they may all point at not fully stroking the press during die setting.

I check and measure everything for the first two or three

and then about 20 later and then once for each primer reload

and after any problem that stops me from stroking the handle.

I checked the lee turret a lot.

miranda

[IGOTGLOCKED]

loading a box and notices the OAL variation...

on one hand... Good! cranking out ammo.

one the other hand... you may want to be a little more sure of your process

before application of "The Crank!"

I am not certain of your press and adjustments vary with the press.

about the best I could do is my target OAL and a couple of thous either way.

as long as there was no trend toward shorter I didn't fuss it.

That much OAL is from loose things dies and shellplates and the nut on the handle.

from the other thread I read you may be over crimping...

they may all point at not fully stroking the press during die setting.

I check and measure everything for the first two or three

and then about 20 later and then once for each primer reload

and after any problem that stops me from stroking the handle.

I checked the lee turret a lot.

miranda

Thanks Miranda, I have a 650. What seemed to pop out at me from your thoughts were perhaps not fully stroking when I am setting the dies..? I will check the bolt on the handle to be sure it is tight. I do keep my shell plate fully loaded during the die adjusting process though and I am certain to have a casing in the die with ram up when final tightning of each die. There is no movement in my shell plate.

Has anyone ever had to shim the toolhead?

Your help is much appreciated!

[Miranda]

... I had read it was a 650 and while I was typing, I was suddenly not sure.

so I am busted for not checking.

it also crossed my mind, and likely the source of doubt... that you may have another press...

the shell plate has a teeter-totter effect across the center bearing.

so if you have one case pressing hard in one station it will lift the cases on the opposite side.

that is the looseness I meant.

use a layer or two of aluminum foil as a shim if you want the head to be tight.

miranda

[IGOTGLOCKED]

... I had read it was a 650 and while I was typing, I was suddenly not sure.

so I am busted for not checking.

it also crossed my mind, and likely the source of doubt... that you may have another press...

the shell plate has a teeter-totter effect across the center bearing.

so if you have one case pressing hard in one station it will lift the cases on the opposite side.

that is the looseness I meant.

use a layer or two of aluminum foil as a shim if you want the head to be tight.

miranda

I double checked the shell plate and it is solid. Thanks for the tip with tin foil, I'll try that as I am able to feel a little movement in the tool head by hand. Is that normal? I just don't understand all the variance I'm getting when so many others don't. Pretty frustrating...

Edited April 24, 2016 by IGOTGLOCKED

[Sarge]

The tool head moving is by design. When you load it gets pushed up against the frame and becomes a solid set up. This is why platforms have to be tightened properly and dies have to be adjusted correctly as well.

You can buy whidden tool heads that lock in place but in my opinion they are not needed for what we do. And I have shunned mine etc but it doesn't do a thing for me except make brass harder to line up with the dies.

Are you an engineer by chance? Engineers get wrapped around the axle about reloading. I have a friend who is an engineer and he had a lot of problems with his 650 too.

[TDA]

I believe that consistency in the operation of the press is the key.

Run it at a cadence with smooth movements and firm positive pressure at the end of each stroke.

[IGOTGLOCKED]

The tool head moving is by design. When you load it gets pushed up against the frame and becomes a solid set up. This is why platforms have to be tightened properly and dies have to be adjusted correctly as well.

You can buy whidden tool heads that lock in place but in my opinion they are not needed for what we do. And I have shunned mine etc but it doesn't do a thing for me except make brass harder to line up with the dies.

Are you an engineer by chance? Engineers get wrapped around the axle about reloading. I have a friend who is an engineer and he had a lot of problems with his 650 too.

Hey Top, was an engineer in the 101st Airborne but not by civilian degree although I probably should have been by virtue of deductive reasoning. It just doesn't add up. I am very careful and patient about how I do what I do yet with a machine as well designed and built as a Dillon my results are all over the place. What am I missing?