matt7184 Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 Now that Lipseys has LAV Gen 3s with the Vickers magazine release and USPSA seemingly allows the extended Springer magazine release for the 320 ... Would the Tango Down Gen 3 LAV magazine release be legal in Production? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 I don't see how either is legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Wasn't there a ruling recently that pretty much said you can use any aftermarket mag release in Production as long as it doesn't increase the surface area of the button? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt7184 Posted April 5, 2016 Author Share Posted April 5, 2016 This is what was posted on FB: Magazine releases in Production Division USPSA There have been a lot of questions lately regarding extended magazine releases in Production Division. Here's a little information that will hopefully clear up some of the confusion. For some reason, this exact wording did not make the 2014 rules set. I've introduced a ruling to clarify this information, and it will be added to the online version of the Handgun rules as soon as possible. The key wording here concerns aftermarket parts. The part can only make the magazine release button longer, not wider, unless it's an OFM (Original Firearm Manufacturer — changed from OEM in 2012 or so) part available on some other approved model. There are several aftermarket suppliers that have magazine releases that are identical to the OFM magazine release, only longer. These are approved for use in Production Division. From the 2009 interpretations and rulings: An external part which extends only the length of the magazine-release button is specifically allowed in section 21.6 of the 2009 interpretation, whether the part is OEM or aftermarket. If the part provides a larger surface area (a big head, a button, a paddle, etc.) or is different than the original part in any dimension other than length, the part is only permitted if it is an OEM part available on an approved model of gun. Note that an internal modification to a magazine-release mechanism which results in shifting the magazine-release laterally (i.e., making the part stick out further on one side of the gun) would be considered an "internal modification," and is allowed. Troy McManusDirector, National Range Officers Institute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Ah yes, that's what I was looking for. I was foolishly trying to find that yesterday on the USPSA website instead of facebook... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 So no not legal till the ruling (rule change) is approved by the BOD and posted to the Rulings page on the USPSA web site. at our sectional in August I was told by my RM (RMI) that they were told not to enforce that rule as the ruling was going to be posted any day, well its not August any more and its not posted so possibly the BOD has a different opinion? But like SO many of the Production equipment rules it will be de facto legal because nobody will really know what is and is not legal so nobody will be moved to open for for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 So no not legal till the ruling (rule change) is approved by the BOD and posted to the Rulings page on the USPSA web site. at our sectional in August I was told by my RM (RMI) that they were told not to enforce that rule as the ruling was going to be posted any day, well its not August any more and its not posted so possibly the BOD has a different opinion? But like SO many of the Production equipment rules it will be de facto legal because nobody will really know what is and is not legal so nobody will be moved to open for for it. It doesn't seem to be a rule change, just a clarification of the current rule. Seems like Troy is just clarifying what's been legal for Production the whole time so no need to wait for official ruling to change mag release as it's already legal. At least that's the way I'm reading it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 So no not legal till the ruling (rule change) is approved by the BOD and posted to the Rulings page on the USPSA web site. at our sectional in August I was told by my RM (RMI) that they were told not to enforce that rule as the ruling was going to be posted any day, well its not August any more and its not posted so possibly the BOD has a different opinion? But like SO many of the Production equipment rules it will be de facto legal because nobody will really know what is and is not legal so nobody will be moved to open for for it. It doesn't seem to be a rule change, just a clarification of the current rule. Seems like Troy is just clarifying what's been legal for Production the whole time so no need to wait for official ruling to change mag release as it's already legal. At least that's the way I'm reading it. So if you are asked about the mag release how do you say its legal? I get that most likely, nobody will get called on it, but that still doesn't make it legal (in the same way driving 67 in a 65 and not getting a ticket doesn't make it legal) 21 Authorized modifications (Strictly limited to these items and their stated guidelines) Please note that, during a match, a shooter may be required to demonstrate that their gun is in compliance with Division rules by identifying a specific rules clause or published interpretation which authorizes any disputed modification. If the shooter cannot identify an authorizing rules-clause or published interpretation, the RM shall rule that the modification is PROHIBITED for Production use and shall move the shooter to Open Division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 So no not legal till the ruling (rule change) is approved by the BOD and posted to the Rulings page on the USPSA web site. at our sectional in August I was told by my RM (RMI) that they were told not to enforce that rule as the ruling was going to be posted any day, well its not August any more and its not posted so possibly the BOD has a different opinion? But like SO many of the Production equipment rules it will be de facto legal because nobody will really know what is and is not legal so nobody will be moved to open for for it. It doesn't seem to be a rule change, just a clarification of the current rule. Seems like Troy is just clarifying what's been legal for Production the whole time so no need to wait for official ruling to change mag release as it's already legal. At least that's the way I'm reading it. I agree, but.... Until it is published in an official location, it isn't so. Unfortunately, as mike points out above, it's pretty unlikely anybody would get bumped to open for anything short of a flagrant and obvious modification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 I take back my above comment from earlier today. I hadn't read that section of the current rule book in a while. It's pretty clear than you can only use OEM parts and aftermarket aren't allowed per the current rules. So this really would be a totally new rule, not just clarifying the existing language. Strange that they're allowing aftermarket mag releases. What's next, aftermarket slide stops, safeties, triggers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Or aftermarket barrels, slides, sights, grips, mags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Or aftermarket barrels, slides, sights, grips, mags? touché Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 It's pretty clear than you can only use OEM parts and aftermarket aren't allowed per the current rules. So this really would be a totally new rule, not just clarifying the existing language. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 I put one on my G17 and G34 Gen 3s. Good to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 I put one on my G17 and G34 Gen 3s. Good to hear. Not currently Production compliant with (current) USPSA rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 This is from USPSA website, NROI tab, The Latest News and Information from the NROI, frequently asked questions. 17) I have an approved Production Division gun, and the manufacturer now offers a cool mag-release button on their “custom shop” versions of that gun. Can I use that mag-release button, since it is “an OEM part”? ANSWER: It depends. An external part which extends only the length of the magazine-release button is specifically allowed in section 21.6 of the 2009 interpretation, whether the part is OEM or aftermarket. If the part provides a larger surface area (a big head, a button, a paddle, etc) or is different than the original part in any dimension other than length, the part is only permitted if it is an OEM part available on an approved model of gun. Note that an internal modification to a magazine-release mechanism which results in shifting the magazine-release laterally (i.e., making the part stick out further on one side of the gun) would be considered an “internal modification”, and is allowed. Also note that parts from “custom shop” guns are only considered “OEM parts” if the “custom shop” model is on the NROI list of approved guns. If NROI has not certified the “custom shop” gun for USPSA Production Division, using a custom-shop part may be an “external modification”, resulting in a “new/unapproved model” which would be illegal for USPSA Production Division. Contact NROI for an official ruling before switching to the new part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Too bad we are running or matches under the 2014 rule book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 I wish I was surprised that a "hot topic" on the USPSA web site is a explanation of rulings for a rule book that has been out of date for over 2 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Does this apply to slide stops, too? If I need to ask that in another thread, I will, but it seemed to fit here. My Glocks are stock except for an aftermarket slide stop that's wider. I don't plan on shooting them in Production, but it'd be good to know in case I ever got the itch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 No aftermarket slide stops are not legal in production, although there are probably a number of people running them without being caught Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 No aftermarket slide stops are not legal in production, although there are probably a number of people running them without being caught Thanks. I don't want to be "one of those guys" and while a slide stop shouldn't make-or-break a different classification, don't want to earn a classification at local matches with illegal gear. Back to the normally scheduled thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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