Sarge Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 I guess Ill never learn... Today we had a pendulum swinging Texas Star stage. Resetting this contraption was difficult and a 2 to 3 man deal. It was cool though. I helped set it up a couple times today then was talking to a buddy of mine, (topic forgotten)..And I see the other guys struggling with resetting this Star. So I run up to help. On the way past a bench I drop the full mag I had in my hand...........I was sitting so I had it out of my back pocket. I help with the set up and another shooter walks up to me @ the Star and says... "This your mag? It was on a Safe Bench..." He saved my bacon...again. You won't ever learn as long as people keep giving you breaks! This particular range has more Safe Areas than normal. These are sometimes between the covered area where you'd drop your gear and the shooting area of the bay. The bays are deep. There are also racks for wall barriers, Bianchi barriers, Cowboy Shooting and other props in the same area. Not trying to make excuses buttttttttt......... And yes it was the same range as the one in my original post. I swear I wont do it again............. I hear you. This is why it helps to know the rules, both shooters and MD. SA's must be clearly defined first of all. If they are not then you have a leg to stand on. Some clubs are pretty bad. Like I mentioned elsewhere I worked a match last year that had a safety area(table) right smack dab in the middle of where everybody congregates during shooting and a table for loading mags etc was way over to the side of the pit. Terrible setup. I tried to simply get permission to switch signs around. Nope! So I had to incorporate it into my stage briefing or we would have had a DQ on every squad for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 what is a 'safe bench'. seems to me if you toss a mag down on one, and stay outside the fault lines, you technically haven't committed any dq-able offense, just a party foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 If you toss a loaded mag onto anything in a safety area, you had to be handling it. Don't do that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 If you toss a loaded mag onto anything in a safety area, you had to be handling it. Don't do that! but if you are not in the safe area, you can't be handling it in the safe area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barebones1 Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 I know I'm the new guy. But a can of spray paint and one line in a rule book( unless your congress) is an easy fix. Paint all safety tables red ...this must be an ongoing issue. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 (edited) the ongoing issue imho is that people just don't pay attention. at the ranges i normally shoot at, the safe areas are outside of the bays themselves, and very well marked. At many other ranges, there may be a safe table in every bay, but sometimes on one side, sometimes on the other, it just requires one to pay attention. I personally double-check and even ask someone else alot of times just to make sure i'm not running afoul of local custom. Oftentimes for a big match the MD wants a few extra safe areas, so they take existing tables from somewhere else and put up a sign and some fault lines, so mandating a particular color could be problematic if you only want it for a weekend. Edited June 7, 2016 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 If you toss a loaded mag onto anything in a safety area, you had to be handling it. Don't do that!but if you are not in the safe area, you can't be handling it in the safe area. You must be a lawyer. I'd like to be at the match where you pull that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 If you toss a loaded mag onto anything in a safety area, you had to be handling it. Don't do that!but if you are not in the safe area, you can't be handling it in the safe area. You must be a lawyer. I'd like to be at the match where you pull that. that's not even lawyering. if you are not in the safe area, and you throw something into the safe area, no reasonable person could make the argument that you handled that object in the safe area. I have no need to 'pull that' at a match or anywhere else, but I might not dq a competitor who dropped something onto a bench so he could go help reset or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 I think they should have a safe table next to every "Port A John" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeEB Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 If you toss a loaded mag onto anything in a safety area, you had to be handling it. Don't do that!but if you are not in the safe area, you can't be handling it in the safe area. You must be a lawyer. I'd like to be at the match where you pull that. that's not even lawyering. if you are not in the safe area, and you throw something into the safe area, no reasonable person could make the argument that you handled that object in the safe area. I have no need to 'pull that' at a match or anywhere else, but I might not dq a competitor who dropped something onto a bench so he could go help reset or whatever. How about once you have to retrieve the mag? You're done then, no way to do that without "handling" the mag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 If you toss a loaded mag onto anything in a safety area, you had to be handling it. Don't do that!but if you are not in the safe area, you can't be handling it in the safe area. You must be a lawyer. I'd like to be at the match where you pull that. that's not even lawyering. if you are not in the safe area, and you throw something into the safe area, no reasonable person could make the argument that you handled that object in the safe area. I have no need to 'pull that' at a match or anywhere else, but I might not dq a competitor who dropped something onto a bench so he could go help reset or whatever. How about once you have to retrieve the mag? You're done then, no way to do that without "handling" the mag. no argument there. that's when you need an RO, or a non-competitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 If you toss a loaded mag onto anything in a safety area, you had to be handling it. Don't do that!but if you are not in the safe area, you can't be handling it in the safe area. You must be a lawyer. I'd like to be at the match where you pull that. that's not even lawyering. if you are not in the safe area, and you throw something into the safe area, no reasonable person could make the argument that you handled that object in the safe area. I have no need to 'pull that' at a match or anywhere else, but I might not dq a competitor who dropped something onto a bench so he could go help reset or whatever. How about once you have to retrieve the mag? You're done then, no way to do that without "handling" the mag. no argument there. that's when you need an RO, or a non-competitor. No, just an RO. If you solicit a non-competitor to handle ammo in a safety area, you're up for DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 If you toss a loaded mag onto anything in a safety area, you had to be handling it. Don't do that!but if you are not in the safe area, you can't be handling it in the safe area. You must be a lawyer. I'd like to be at the match where you pull that. that's not even lawyering. if you are not in the safe area, and you throw something into the safe area, no reasonable person could make the argument that you handled that object in the safe area. I have no need to 'pull that' at a match or anywhere else, but I might not dq a competitor who dropped something onto a bench so he could go help reset or whatever. How about once you have to retrieve the mag? You're done then, no way to do that without "handling" the mag. no argument there. that's when you need an RO, or a non-competitor. No, just an RO. If you solicit a non-competitor to handle ammo in a safety area, you're up for DQ. that makes sense. under what rule, exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) I have no need to 'pull that' at a match or anywhere else, but I might not dq a competitor who dropped something onto a bench so he could go help reset or whatever. How about once you have to retrieve the mag? You're done then, no way to do that without "handling" the mag. no argument there. that's when you need an RO, or a non-competitor. No, just an RO. If you solicit a non-competitor to handle ammo in a safety area, you're up for DQ. that makes sense. under what rule, exactly? Well, 2.4 governs use of the Safety Areas, which are presumably for competitors' use for certain activities (2.4.1), and which specifically limit certain other activities, in the interest of safety (2.4.2, handling of ammunition). 10.5.12 provides penalty (DQ) for handling live or dummy ammunition in the Safety Area. If a competitor solicits a non-competitor to handle his ammo in the Safety Area (in this example, the loaded mag) it can only be to circumvent being DQd, which I'd put under 10.6 (unsportsmanlike conduct). If he wants to argue that, he can arbitrate. Wouldn't it be a lot easier to summon an RO? To counter the inevitable argument (this being BE) that we're trying to decide what his "intention" was, we don't need to do any more than look at his behavior. He has a loaded mag on a table that's a step away from where he is, he knows (or should know) the rules about Safety Areas, and yet he goes to some non-competitor and says, "hey, buddy, could you come over here and hand me that mag on the table?" And he'll give us some story about why he asked that guy to do it. And we'll know, because he told us. If he asked a competitor to do the same thing, the competitor would be liable for DQ and shouldn't even think about it. So why did he ask a bystander? Edited June 8, 2016 by teros135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Isn't the table part of the safe area. To me it doesn't make sense to allow somebody to stand beside a table and put a mag on it. I would call that a DQ. Let the RM deal with it after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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