Problem with resized .223

[Scratchthejeepguy]

I'm having a problem loading my .223 loads and I'm not sure why... For a little background, I started out with a Lee SS press about 5-6 years ago, but quickly moved on to a Dillon XL650. I've loaded maybe 50K of handgun ammo on it and probably 10K of .223 ammo on it. I use my SS press for precision rifle.

I just recently decided to get a Dillon 1500 trimmer and do my .223 brass prep on a dedicated toolhead for it, then switching toolheads and doing the prime, charge, seat, and crimp process next. I bought the Dillon .223 trim/sizing die for the 1500 and believe I have it set up correctly.

I first adjusted the die to do a full length size on the tumbled, lubed cases with the trimmer not installed, and checked them with my case gauge. Everything was fine. Then I added the 1500 trimmer and adjusted it to trim at the correct height. All was good and I loaded a little over 500 rounds with that setup, then life got in the way, and I had to wait about a week to start up again and finish up my large batch. Here's where I encountered the problem...

For some reason, most of my cases (which have already been wet tumbled and lubed) now are not going all the way into my Wilson case gauge after resizing.

Some of them go all the way in, like this:

And if I turn the case around and try to fit it in backwards, it goes all the way in, like this:

But most of them, only go in about this much, which is about .027 shy of all the way in:

And if I turn them around, and try to insert them backwards, it's just the rim of the case that doesn't want to go in all the way, like this:

These cases chamber in all my rifles fine, they extract and eject fine too. The only thing I did differently was to wait a few days to start back up again. I even tried using my old Lee FLS die that I use to use, on my SS press that is still set up on a quick release insert. When I try to FLS them with that die and press, they still don't go in all the way.

I have tried cleaning and lubing the case gauge too. The headstamps are mixed, but there's no rhyme or reason as to which ones are good or not. For some reason the first batch of 500 all drop easily into the case gauge still, but most of these do not.

I started out with about 1500 empty cases. They were either fired from my own rifles and may or may not have been reloaded multiple times, or they were OFB picked up from my personal range, or a range that I shoot 3 gun at last summer.

I tumbled the entire batch of about 1500, then let them all dry, and lubed them. Then I took about 500 of them and loaded them with no problems.

Any ideas as to why most of this brass is not going in all the way?

[anachronism]

Is the issue limited to any one headstamp? It sounds like you have some brass with larger than spec rims. The two cases you are showing have different headstamps.

[mlmiller1]

No conventional top down size die will resize the rim. Sounds like you have some oversize rims, they are either scratched or just plain too large. As long as they work in your guns, I guess all is well but if you want to avoid being in this situation, try every piece of brass backwards in your gauge before doing anything to them. If the rims fit in your gauge, load them, if they don't, send them to me, hahaha. When I have brass that doesnt go in my gauge, it is usually a burr or something on the rim. I sometimes use a small piece of sandpaper or file & make them go. Sometimes I just twist them around backwards on the gauge until they will go in it, probably not a good practice but I haven't had any issues so it works for me.

MLM

[meatman]

Are you wet tumbling with or without pins, and for how long?

[dauntedfuture]

It is possible for the FL die to be adjusted too far down. What happens is that the FL die compresses the shell plate and can smoosh the rim of the cases out. The other possibility is that the brass was fired in a chamber where the face of the bolt was a little on the big size and expanded to fit. I am having a little hard time following what you are describing as your process but understand that the 1500 trimmer has a FL size and trim die. You don't need to FL size and then run the lubed brass into a 1500 trimmer with a size and trim die.

You need to isolate the problem. and determine if your brass processing is smooshing out the brass. Measure the smooshed brass and see what the diameter of the brass is. Measure some cases before you have done anything to them and see what they measure, you might find that its your brass that's the issue before you have done anything.

Now find 10 cases that have "small" bases and FL size them. Measure the base, if they swell then its something there.

try to use only the FL trim die with the 1500 and see what happens with another few cases and see if the bases grow.

Again, hard to follow what your process is but you don't need to FL and use the 1500 with a trim die and the 1500 works best with cases that have NOT been FL sized. You will need to deprime the cases on station one but you don't need to FL.

[Scratchthejeepguy]

I am wet tumbling them with no pins first, for an hour, just soap to clean them off, then I run them through my "process" tool head, which has a universal decapping die in station one, a Swage-it deswager in station two, and the 1500 with the full length sizing die in station four.

Then I wet tumble them with SS pins, for 2 1/2 hours, let them dry, then run them through the final loading toolhead where I prime, charge, seat, and crimp them.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Scratchthejeepguy

[Scratchthejeepguy]

I have also tried to take the "small" cases that fit normally, then run them through the FL trim die to see if they get too big, but they don't, They stay the same size.

[mlmiller1]

It's pretty obvious you have some brass that has too big of a rim. Either it came out of a gun with an oversized bolt face or it came from a manufacturer oversized. You can't resize the rim with your setup. I am unsure but perhaps if you find someone that roll sizes cases, that may fix them but I am not sure. If you look, the rim never touches the resize die as the rim is inside the shell plate.

Sounds like you need to case gauge the rim of all your brass before you start your process to separate the oversize rims.

[Scratchthejeepguy]

I know that these are all from AR15's.

I know that they do chamber easily in all of my rifles.

I know that all eject fine.

I know the rim never goes inside the chamber.

I know that the body, neck, mouth, and OAL is to spec.

I know that if I twist them when trying to insert them backwards in the gauge, they fit.

I know that if I take a little bit of sandpaper to the rim, they fit.

I know I can't see anything physically wrong with these cases.

I also know some people don't use a case gauge that you insert the cases in... like my Wilson, they just use one of those plastic card types of OAL gauges, or a set of calipers, and if they did, they would never see this problem.

With that being said... would these be fine to load and shoot the way they are, since the rim is only there for extraction and ejection duties?

Edited February 23, 2016 by Scratchthejeepguy

[meatman]

One of my ARs had a lot of toolmarks in the chamber, causing diffiicult enough extraction to the point that it would bugger up the rims somewhat on my cases. I polished the chamber and solved the problem.

It could be that some of your pick up brass was fired in a chamber with extraction problems. .

Also, the case rim diameter is supposed to be a couple thou larger than the case body.

Edited February 23, 2016 by meatman

[RiggerJJ]

Nothing wrong with using a case gauge to check headspace. I run into rims that don't drop into the gauge just like you have here, and I usually just set them aside and file them down later, which is what I would recommend doing. I haven't been able to chase down the actual cause, I feel it is probably something to do with what happened when it was previously fired. Never seen it with new brass. (when I am fortunate enough to have new brass, I run it thru the processing head just like I would with used brass)

I don't see any way for it to happen in a brass processing head. You are not doing anything in your processing that would cause the rims to become oversized.

I don't understand dauntedfuture's statement about being able to "smoosh" the rim by having a full length sizer set too deep, never heard of such a thing, never been able to do it to my brass. I would like to see some evidence that it can happen...

Having a full length sizer/decapper before the trimmer (which is also a sizer) is a common method that (imho) gives you more consistently sized and trimmed brass. It keeps the tension on the head (1050) or platform (650) even.

jmho...

jj

[rmfischer]

I had some do the same thing. After a closer inspection I found the ejector was causing a slight notch in the rim and kept it from seating correctly. Before I saw that I ran the pieces through the resizing die quite a few times and still had the issue. Once I saw the marks from the extractor and filed them down they seated just fine. Is it possible you are having the same issue? Check closely

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[dauntedfuture]

There are two reasons that you get "little notches" in your case rims; You are not sizing your brass enough or you are shooting a load that it too hot. Recycle that brass.

[RDA]

There are two reasons that you get "little notches" in your case rims; You are not sizing your brass enough or you are shooting a load that it too hot. Recycle that brass.

How does not sizing your brass enough contribute to the "little notches" in your case rims?

[bigedp51]

I had some do the same thing. After a closer inspection I found the ejector was causing a slight notch in the rim and kept it from seating correctly. Before I saw that I ran the pieces through the resizing die quite a few times and still had the issue. Once I saw the marks from the extractor and filed them down they seated just fine. Is it possible you are having the same issue? Check closely

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

rmfischer hit the nail on the head above, the reason your cases do not drop all the way in the Wilson case gauge is they have dings in the rim.

Just keep a small fine file on the reloading bench to file down these raised sections from the extractor.

I buy a lot of once fired Lake City cases and I always find some cases with rim damage. Just spin the cases while holding the rim between your thumb and fore finger and you will feel the dings in the rims.

Port pressure has a big effect on ejection and on a over gassed AR15 the bolt can move to the rear while there is pressure in the barrel. Meaning the extractor is yanking on the case rim while the case is still stuck to the chamber walls under pressure.

1. You could have a sharp edge on the extractor that needs stoned down.

2. Your loads are too hot, meaning higher than normal port pressure.

3. A weak buffer

4. All of the above.

My AR15 carbine has a "mid-length" gas system to reduce this effect and the carbine and pistol gas systems are worse for this problem.

[dauntedfuture]

If your brass is not sized enough you are effectivley sizing the brass when the bolt slams home. Provided the bolt closes, this is safe. When the round is fired there is too much tension on the side walls of the case and the extractor marks the brass. In extreme cases you can pull the rim off and leave the fired case in your rifle or ruin the brass. It is common to see a "little extractor mark" on many rifles but not a huge extractor mark. Over-gasses carbine gas rifles will leave little marks too as there is still lots of pressure when the rifle unlocks.

[Ming the Merciless]

I would suspect the Swage It deswaging tool is either set too aggressively and is smooshing the rim against the 650 shell plate. Looking at your photo it looks like the top of the case rim is chewed up, possibly by the Swage It and the 650 shell plate.

[Scratchthejeepguy]

I think that the cases are too large, below the line where they get resized. If I turn the cases around the rim won't go into the case gauge backwards. It will just about go in, but not quite.

But if I twist the case as I try pushing it in, it will go past the rim but still get hung up on the lower body of the case. just about the lower 1/16-1/8" of it. It still needs to be twisted to go in, but it will go in. Once it's in, if I give it a couple twists, now it's completely fine.

I think that since the FLSD die doesn't go "all" the way down to the bottom of the case, that's the part that is still a little large. I've decided to not worry about it since:

1. they seem to chamber, fire, extract and eject completely fine.

2. If I were checking length like a lot of people do with just a flat piece of plastic or steel case length gauge, or a set of calipers, I'd never notice it anyways.

[tcoz]

If they chamber, extract & eject without a problem I wouldn't worry about it. I had the same problem with .30-06 cases fired in an M1 Garand. All cartridge dimensions were within SAAMI spec but they wouldn't go all the way into my Wilson gauge. I adjusted and readjusted my sizing die and nothing changed. Finally I took a close look at the case head rims with a magnifying glass and found burrs, tiny dings and a few very slightly bent rims. I fixed a few of them and sure enough, they dropped right in. Since they all functioned and since the cases were all properly sized, I just shot them and i haven't worried about it since. I also put the case gauge away in a drawer.

Edited April 10, 2016 by tcoz

[littlefish]

I've had no luck with the Dillon trim resizer die in 30-06, seems way too tight. The Dillon trim die works very well in 223 though, but I full length resize before hand with another die (Dillon carbide, but anything will work) and set shoulder back about a 1 thousands or so, then run case through Dillon trimmer resize die setup for final 1 thousands setback during trimming operation (done on single stage press, cheapy RCBS, left permanently setup with die/electric trimmer setup). The trim die aligns case excellent for good square trimming and is quick. Doing all this case prep on a progressive would be challenging. Once the cases are cleaned, lubed, resized, trimmed/sized, de-burred (inside only needed), re-cleaned, then ready for the 550 for prime, powder, bullet, taper and shoot. RCBS precision mic tool is a must or something similar for measuring shoulder setback!

[bigedp51]

Run your finger around the case rim and then file down the raised dings in the rim and the case will drop into the gauge.

Below the extractor made a raised section in the case rim and the case will not drop into the gauge. I have a very fine file 1/2 inch wide and 6 inches long and I simply file down the raised section until it is flush. Any time you can't insert the case base first into the gauge you have buggered up rims.

Also anytime you use range pickup brass or buy once fired military brass you should use a small base die the first time these cases are resized. Meaning sometimes once fired cases from another rifle will also bind up in the case gauge.

Now file down the ding in the rim and see if it drops all the way into the gauge. If the case still doesn't easily drop into the gauge you have a fat case that needs to be sized with a small base die.

I use a JP .223 Chamber Case Gauge as a final check of a loaded round and it is cut with an actual match chamber finish reamer so it not only checks head space but also case diameter. I'm loading for three different make AR15 rifles and this JP gauge makes sure they fit in all my AR15s.

The case gauge you have scratchthejeepguy only measures from the case shoulder to the base of the case. And the body of the gauge is slightly oversized, so if it doesn't drop all the way into the gauge 95% of the time it is hanging up on the rim.

Edited April 12, 2016 by bigedp51

[tcoz]

I'm a big fan of the Sheridan slotted gauges. They're pricey but well worth it. They're a true case gauge, sized to exact SAAMI minimum specs. What that means is if your finished round passes the gauge test, it'll chamber in your gun, guaranteed. The slotted gauge as opposed to the non-slotted one allows you to see exactly where the problem is if you have a problem. When setting up my sizing die, it allows me to set it up perfectly without any trial and error.